Comments on de cura animarum: No to Women Bishops: A Denial of the Core Values o...

I would add a reference to a book by a German Cath...

2008-04-15T14:27:00.000+01:00

I would add a reference to a book by a German Catholic bishop, Ludwig Mueller, a friend of the present pope, *Priesthood and Diaconate*, which was translated into English a year or two ago, and which (so I am told) is accessible online (in whole or in part), and which argues strenuously that the "ordination" of "women deacons" is as much an impossibility as their "ordination" to the diaconate or priesthood.

On the other hand, and as regards the Orthodox view of these matters, there is that significant essay by Kyriake Kydonis Fitzgerald on the "female diaconate" in (the 1999 second edition of) *Women and the Priesthood* ed. Thomas Hopko (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press) which advocates strongly for "deaconesses" being truly "female deacons" -- but it is interesting to see, both how contentious this contention is in Orthodoxy, and how, faced with Martimort's book, all she does is effectively to sneer at it as "western in its mindset" and irrelevant to her concerns. I think I gave a copy of the Hopko collection to Fr. Jeff, and if he can find the time to read the Fitzgerald essay I should be interested to learn if he agrees with my characterization of it.

Sorry - I got my islands wrong! It was the Orthodo...

2008-04-15T09:34:00.000+01:00

Sorry - I got my islands wrong! It was the Orthodox consultation on Rhodes not Cyprus - was it 1988?
Nebuly

Yes, and that is my view also, but it is a view. t...

2008-04-12T23:37:00.000+01:00

Yes, and that is my view also, but it is a view. the Orthodox at their consultation on Cyprus seemed to favour the opposite. Nonetheless they did not envisage a revival nor did they assert identity of male and female diaconate.
I do not justify our admission of women to the diaconate but suggest it is different. This as I recall was echoed by Henry Chadwick who recorded that in conversation John Paul II raised no objection and indeed showed no interest in our action in so doing but saw the priesthood as utterly different. Nebuly

Well, Nebuly, how about getting and reading *Deaco...

2008-04-12T19:20:00.000+01:00

Well, Nebuly, how about getting and reading *Deaconesses: An Historical Essay* by Aime-Georges Martimort (San Francisco, 1986, 1996: Ignatius Press) and formulating an answer. Martimort is one of the foremost French patristic and liturgical scholars of the last two or three generations, and he concludes in his account that whatever deaconesses were, in those few parts of the church where there were any at all before the year 400, they were not "women deacons."

The book (as I have just verified) is available from UK distributors as well; check at www.abebooks.com.

Not quitePhobe may have been a deacon and no matte...

2008-04-10T22:12:00.000+01:00

Not quite

Phobe may have been a deacon and no matter how the Church got the priesthood and episcopate - direct from Christ and the Apostles or otherwise - we are certain that she, the Church, instituted the diaconate in the power of the Holy Spirit. I think the diaconate is the most noble order and serves the Church after the manner of Christ Himself. It is of great dignity and I rejoice in being one such ( and a priest also ) but I believe it is different for the Churxh, or our part of it, to admit women to the diaconate as compared to the priesthood and episcopate. Am I entirely wrong?
Nebuly

>"I do not see how, having agreed to ordaining wom...

2008-04-06T17:35:00.000+01:00

>"I do not see how, having agreed to ordaining women to both the diaconate and priesthood, the church can logically exclude women from the episcopate."

Quite right. Its only logical that after having made the mistake of ordaining womn to the diaconate and having made the mistake of ordaining women as priests, that the mistake of ordaining women to the episcopate be made as well. Why can't they see the logic of it all?

For more commentary, please look in the comment th...

2008-04-03T17:57:00.000+01:00

For more commentary, please look in the comment thread of this blog post:

http://themcj.com/3725

A little off topic, but I love the photo on this p...

2008-04-03T15:37:00.000+01:00

A little off topic, but I love the photo on this post! Too funny.

Good news for now - Be Joyful: Keep the Faith!

2008-04-02T23:45:00.000+01:00

Good news for now - Be Joyful: Keep the Faith!

Epiphany. Imagine 3 people sitting around a circul...

2008-04-02T20:35:00.000+01:00

Epiphany. Imagine 3 people sitting around a circular table, contending strongly about their views on WO and SS ordinations. One is a liberal revisionist who supports both WO and SS ordinations. One is pro-WO, but staunchly against SS. And the last one is me, anti-WO and anti-SS ordination.

My epiphany is that I am both an ally and an enemy to both. The pro-WO, anti-SS guy will team up with me against the liberal revisionist. And the liberal revisionist guy will team up with me against the pro-WO, anti-SS guy when I tell the WO'er that he has no biblical, theological, and logical foundation from which to protest against GLBT ordinations. His pro-WO position is both leaven to heresy and an open door to a slippery slope towards widespread apostasy.

Too bad, I say. Scripture is against both WO and against GLBT same-sex behavior. I stand on Scripture. If that makes me unpopular and unliked, then so be it. I have always been of the belief that telling the truth of Scripture is the most loving thing one can do.

I think everone agrees of how illogical it is for ...

2008-04-02T20:26:00.000+01:00

I think everone agrees of how illogical it is for the Church of England to have done this and then fails to allow women to be bishops. But two wrongs don't make a right either and maybe one day the C of E can have the real theological debate that is needed.

"I do not see how, having agreed to ordaining wome...

2008-04-02T19:46:00.000+01:00

"I do not see how, having agreed to ordaining women to both the diaconate and priesthood, the church can logically exclude women from the episcopate."

I agree completely with Dr. Morgan on this point. However, our conclusions are different as I believe that women should never have been made priests to begin with. But his logic is perfect. I have never understood those in favor of WO but oppose women being elevated to the Episcopate. It seems, to quote Spock, "illogical".

Don+

Fr. Steel, I understand what you are saying about ...

2008-04-02T19:40:00.000+01:00

Fr. Steel, I understand what you are saying about +Wright.

Back on topic. I heartily agree with with Dr. Barry Morgan on his assertion stating:

"I do not see how, having agreed to ordaining women to both the diaconate and priesthood, the church can logically exclude women from the episcopate."

He's absolutely right! If you're going to ignore Scripture on WO and demolish the biblical foundation on this doctrine, then there's honestly and truly no logical foundation from which to say that women should not be allowed to the episcopate. They really should!

That is, if you're going to hold the line, you should have drawn it and held it much earlier in the battle.

Furthermore, let's just transpose a few words of Dr. Morgan, and make just as compelling an argument for GLBT ordinations:

"I do not see how, having agreed to ordaining women to both the diaconate and priesthood, the church can logically exclude GLBTs from ecclesiastical office."

That's just as reasonable an argument. If you're going to ignore the Authority of Scripture with WO, why stop there?

And how can the Church truly fulfill the Great Commission and share the Gospel with any authentic integrity when the Church herself can't even obey God's clear, culturally-transcendent commands in Scripture. It's ridiculous.

TUaDThanks for the question and it is a fair one. ...

2008-04-02T18:19:00.000+01:00

TUaD

Thanks for the question and it is a fair one. I have a great amount of respect for the Bishop of Durham in so many areas. He has been a tremendous support and I have enjoyed so much of his academic and popular work and commend it highly to everyone.

I think the Bishop is one of the most fair bishops in the C of E on this issue and does not allow it to become a stumbling block with his clergy. I have a great amount of respect for our bishop.

Yet, I do think he is in error here and his arguments for WO are not the strongest of what is often careful exegesis in his academic work. I am yet to be convinced from a biblical viewpoint and traditionally and historically the response goes without saying.

I don't allow his view on WO to keep me from respecting and appreciating so much of his other work and even defending his orthodoxy in many other areas. I think he is a blessing to the Church even though I believe he has given into the society on this issue.

Hi Fr. Steel,I have a relatively off-topic comment...

2008-04-02T18:04:00.000+01:00

Hi Fr. Steel,

I have a relatively off-topic comment to ask you. It is related to WO, but it's not about women bishops or the Church of Wales.

If I recall correctly, you are mentored by Bishop N.T. Wright. +Wright is a staunch defender and advocate of WO. What do you make of that?

You need not respond if it's uncomfortable. I was just curious.

The urgency expressed here seems problematic. I th...

2008-04-02T17:52:00.000+01:00

The urgency expressed here seems problematic. I think it is sensible to say that there is a certain sort of urgency given the changing place of women in our society. The Church, needing to respond to these changing circumstances, must begin ordaining bishops who are women. OK.

But rooting this urgency in the "heart of the Christian gospel" is rather troubling. There weren't bishops before the 20th century (right?) Does this archbishop believe that the Church failed to proclaim the Gospel for so long because of its terrible misreading (I would imagine) of this passage from Galatians? What view of Providence and Church history is implied in such a perspective?

This might not be helpful, but it was what came to mind as I read this piece.

It is also interesting to note the archbishop's point about Christ's maleness being more important than his humanness if we bar women from the episcopate. Those who oppose male priests and bishops apparently believe that only men can fully image Christ to the Church. While this is something worth considering, I also think it is important that the Roman Catholic Church emphasizes that it is very important (even more important) to remember that Christ chose twelve apostles who were all men. I won't develop the implications of this line of thinking except to say that the archbishop may not be addressing some of the most important arguments for an all-male clergy.

Of course, this was a short piece...