Sunday, 29 November 2009

Why Rowan Williams is Wrong: Priesthood as a First-Order Issue

After reading a number of different comments about Rowan Williams' speech in Rome a week or so ago I thought it might be interesting to raise the issue to a proper theological discussion rather than keeping it in the politically correct realm of politics and church. Is Rowan correct that 'priesthood' really is a secondary issue and not a key point of division? One of the primary issues that Rowan is calling into doubt is the issue of authority and how the Church makes decisions. What is being called into doubt in the below quotation is the Magisterium's authority. Rowan says,
As to authority: the summary on pp.137-8 of Harvesting puts it very well in describing convergence around the belief that 'the ministry and the ministries in the Church are not an end in themselves'; the Church is called to obedience, and thus to the discerning conservation of the authentic gospel in its teaching and preaching. But is that obedience, discernment and conservation in some sense the task of the entire body of the baptised or essentially that of a group designated as having binding power?
But Rowan takes this further in his speech as he talks about ecclesilogy with a centralised power that is not recognised by other parts of the church. The issue of ecclesiology and Ordo is so intertwined that I find it difficult to separate the two when discussing one or the other. Rowan gives a challenge,

And the challenge to recent Roman Catholic thinking on this would have to be: in what way does the prohibition against ordaining women so 'enhance the life of communion', reinforcing the essential character of filial and communal holiness as set out in Scripture and tradition and ecumenical agreement, that its breach would compromise the purposes of the Church as so defined? And do the arguments advanced about the "essence" of male and female vocations and capacities stand on the same level as a theology derived more directly from scripture and the common theological heritage such as we find in these ecumenical texts?

Let us take this a stage further. All ordained ministers are ordained into the shared richness of the apostolic ministerial order – or perhaps we could say ministerial 'communion' yet again. None ministers as a solitary individual. Thus if the ministerial collective is understood strictly in terms of the ecclesiology we have been considering, as serving the goal of filial and communal holiness as the character of restored humanity, how much is that undermined if individuals within the ministerial communion are of different genders? Even if there remains uncertainty in the minds of some about the rightness of ordaining women, is there a way of recognising that somehow the corporate exercise of a Catholic and evangelical ministry remains intact even when there is dispute about the standing of female individuals? In terms of the relation of local to universal, what we are saying here is that a degree of recognizability of 'the same Catholic thing' has survived: Anglican provinces ordaining women to some or all of the three orders have not become so obviously diverse in their understanding of filial holiness and sacramental transformation that they cannot act together, serve one another and allow some real collaboration.

This is the entire point. The 'same Catholic thing' is not intact because sacramentally it is impossible to ordain women to the priesthood. What Rowan seems to be willing to do is to undermine the 'value' of sacraments and symbol. Not only does he undermine the value of sacraments with this question he also removes the purpose of symbol in sacrament that accomplishes the primordial function of language to the interior witness of priesthood. It is in symbol that the real speaks and if he can change the symbol in one sacrament, then why not all the others? What of their 'realness' will be gone and hence the 'realness' of Christ if the symbols change? Symbol is the very thing that communicates and unfolds the primary dimension of language and sacramentally the fundamental metaphor of sacramental reality. Sacrament is how Christ becomes human to us and reveals his truth.

What happens when you change or alter the sacramental symbols is that you remove the symbolic efficacy of the rites. As Chauvet reminds us, 'a communication is supremely effective because it is through language that the subject comes forth in its relations to other subjects within a common "world" of meaning.' What Rowan wrongly does in his question and in his views reduces ordination to some sort of a 'socio-linguistic process' transforming sacramental grace in priesthood into nothing more than a secular-humanistic form of anthropology and in actuality diminishes the complete 'otherness' of God. Sacramental grace can only be maintained IF we obtain its reality extra nos and in Christ. That is, this grace is established by Christ and not from our 'meeting of minds' in diversity and hence this is why Rowan slips into a form without reality in his position.

In my estimation, it would do Rowan Williams well to remember what Pope Paul VI said when Anglicans began ordaining women,
the Catholic Church holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church.
Finally, it becomes obvious to me that Rowan's position also begins to undermine the Church as Body and hence the Sacrament par excellance. Rowans states,
All I have been attempting to say here is that the ecumenical glass is genuinely half-full – and then to ask about the character of the unfinished business between us. For many of us who are not Roman Catholics, the question we want to put, in a grateful and fraternal spirit, is whether this unfinished business is as fundamentally church-dividing as our Roman Catholic friends generally assume and maintain. And if it isn't, can we all allow ourselves to be challenged to address the outstanding issues with the same methodological assumptions and the same overall spiritual and sacramental vision that has brought us thus far?
The late Pope John Paul II reminds us in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis that
In fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan; Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, "through the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood, the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rv 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers who would succeed them in their ministry. Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles' mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.
There lies the fundamental difference between a Catholic and Rowan's position. Christ did not call for a function to be carried out in the Church but a Sacrament to communicate effectively his love and redemption for the world in a real and symbolic manner. Thus to change the symbol in the sacrament of ordination is to change the faith in its very principle and it would do us all well to remember that the faith is communicated to us by sacrament and not simply by derivation; as if ordination can be viewed as something akin to grammatical inflections. Our existence as being Christian and living the faith in the realm of the real is always structured sacramentally and this cannot be changed and at the same time maintain the reality that the sacrament of Holy Orders seeks to communicate.

To be continued.

Fr. Dwight Longenecker picks up on the discussion at his blog.

28 comments:

Fred said...

Yes. Williams did also briefly address the person of the ordained: "But for many Anglicans, not ordaining women has a possible unwelcome implication about the difference between baptised men and baptised women, which in their view threatens to undermine the coherence of the ecclesiology in question." As you can see, however, this argument relies on baptismal theology and not any specific theology of Holy Orders.

William Tighe said...

What is rather remarkable about the AbC's position, as well, is that it casts completely aside the assertions about Orders and ordination in the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral -- and that, in doing this, he has taken a position which to all intents and purposes identical with that of Evangelicals (including Anglican Evangelicals) and most Lutherans, and that is at odds with that of Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and old Catholics (atleast before the latter began their descent into "out anglicaning the liberal Anglicans" on both WO and SS in the 90s).

Considering the lack of interest (to put it no more strongly) that the AbC has displayed in Evangelical (including Anglican Evangelical) theological particularities, and the indifference, if not hostility, that Evangelicals (or at least Anglican Evangelicals) have displayed towards his theologizing, this is a remarkable place in which for him to position himself. We have come a long way here from Abp. Fisher's "no faith of our own other than that of the undivided Catholic Church," as well as fro the Caroline Divines and the Tractarians and their successors.

Elizabeth from Sussex said...

This is a great explanation - very clear - thank you.

Ponte Sisto said...

Wonderful post, Jeff!

FrDarryl said...

It was October 2004 and I was serving at my first Dallas Diocesan Convention (Synod in CofEse) as a clergy delegate. We split into small groups and were discussing the impact of the consecration of Gene Robinson on TEC. I argued that it was wrong to ordain or marry practising homosexuals.

A lay delegate from an evangelical parish objected, using the classic question-begging, 'mission-shaped' trump card:

'Fr Darryl, shouldn't we put all this sexuality stuff about bishops and weddings on the back burner and proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ?'

I thought for a minute and replied, sacraments are the most important thing we do as Church. Marriage and Ordination are sacraments. How can they be secondary to anything?

He had no answer.

Dr Rowan Williams is being a bit credulous when he subordinates the Sacrament of Ordination to Sacraments of Initiation. Like many pro-WO Anglicans, he conflates the anthropology of Baptism and Ordination, rather than seeing them in their unique metaphysical reality and existential dignity.

Fr. J. said...

Thank you, Jeffery. A sacrament is both a symbol and a reality. It effects what it signifies. So, how a sacrament is signified is essential to what is signified and what is effected. Beer and pretzels cannot take the place of wine and bread, otherwise something else would be signified and thus nothing would be effected. So with the maleness of Christ--it is essential to the person of Jesus, not incidental. How it is essential to his person may be understood in multiple ways, but clearly the two sexes are not interchangeable or the apostles would not have been all men. The fact of Christ being a male is a rich subject made virtually impossible to explore in the post feminist era, but will undoubtedly be rich material for generations to plumb in the future. It is a question with Jungian, Hebrew, and natural dimensions at the very least. As for the ministerial priesthood being a secondary matter, yes, that is Calvin speaking, not the Apostles.

As for the restriction of ordination to men having implications for baptism, this is bumper-sticker theology. My mother who was among the founders of the Women's Ordination Conference literally had a bumper sticker on her deep freeze saying "If you won't ordain women, stop baptizing them!"

flyingvic said...

Speaking as an Anglican priest, I find that the sadness I feel in reading this post, its papal quotations and its responses, stems from two thoughts:
1) the implication that the Holy Spirit could not possibly in the course of two thousand years have led the Church along a path that develops that Church's original understanding. I don't label myself as a Women's Liberationist; I rather hope that in the name and grace of Christ I am enabled to be a Human Liberationist. But no-one can deny that much harm has been perpetrated through history by those who have effectively made women second-class human beings. Is it truly NOT POSSIBLE that the Holy Spirit might be leading the Church to question its traditional stance, perhaps by meditating further on Galatians 3.28?
2) what is the deepest truth of the 'symbol' that we are talking about here? Is it the maleness of Christ or the humanity of Christ?
In the nature of things Jesus had to be born either male or female; and to the best of our knowledge he remained unmarried: he was neither dominant over nor subservient to any other single human being, nor did he enter into partnership. He came as the Lord and Servant of all.

Is not the sublimation of the sexual drive one way of underlining our humanity rather than our gender?

Jeffrey Steel said...

Flyingvic,

The answer is No to #1) because Galatians 3:28 has nothing AT ALL to do with Holy Orders but justification by faith. That includes men and women. Holy Orders doesn't. As far as #2 is concerned the symbol includes male humanity and because Jesus himself only called males and to say that he was bound by his culture makes him a weak deity who is under the fear of his own culture in which he was incarnate. Could you not then argue that he was born too soon?

There is no theological justification for the ordination of women to the priesthood because of this post and the second part of it. Feel free to give a substantive argument than taking a proof-text from scripture way out of its theological and exegetical context. Feel free to do so here.

flyingvic said...

My friend, you mistake my intention. I was not hurling proof texts around like darts; rather, I was suggesting that this one might have something to do with the case in point.

Certainly, Paul is talking about justification by faith; but when he writes (Revised English Bible): "It is through faith that you are all sons of God in union with Christ Jesus. Baptized into union with him, you have all put on Christ like a garment"; can you really maintain that this explicit inclusiveness ONLY applies to his doctrine of justification by faith? That he really should have gone on to say (for purposes of clarification, obviously) "but of course, you mustn't run away with this wonderful and cosy idea about all being one in Christ through baptism; it only applies to this bit of doctrine, not to church practice as a whole!"

As a matter of fact I didn't say that Jesus was bound by his culture, although it is certainly true that he might have decided that at that time his immediate purposes might be better served by male apostles. That's the problem with arguing from silence, isn't it? You can never be finally sure one way or the other.

But I'm truly fascinated by your implicit assertion that the Holy Spirit could not possibly have tried to lead the Church in a new direction in any of these past two thousand years. I look forward to a substantive argument from you about the Doctrine of the Incapacity of the Holy Spirit, with the proper and appropriate Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.

Jeffrey Steel said...

Can you tell me 'flyingvic' what hermeneutic and authority to you use to test and validate that your novelty is of the Holy Spirit? On what theological basis do you make such claims? The proof is not on me to justify the Church's position, the proof is on you to justify your novelty of Holy Orders for the Church claiming its the Holy Spirit every time something "new" blows across the front of the ship.

Jeffrey Steel said...

By the way, to make it clear: I never suggested that I am limiting the Holy Spirit on this issue, I am simply saying that He limited Holy Orders to men only. He is the one doing the limiting; not me.

Jeffrey Steel said...

Also, flyingvic, I am trying to figure out your reasoning why the Apostle Paul, Luke and other NT writers didn't pick up on these "insights" and "applications" from Gal. 3:28 that applies to women's orders? Any suggestions?

Jeffrey Steel said...

To address your argument with a bit more seriousness 'flyingvic' I simply find it a hard capsule to swallow that the Spirit has moved in such a way that if Jesus were alive today he would call women to be bishops, priests or deacons. This is simply unacceptable theologically. To validate something so contradictory historically because times have changed now is to also open the door for the invalidation of other issues like sexuality in general. We all know where these novelties and rebellious movings of the "spirit" are getting the church today and how these new movements of the "spirit" are creating so much unity which is one of the signs of the Spirit's working. I of course speak with tongue in cheek.

flyingvic said...

I seem to have got under your skin a little bit. I am not making assertions here; I am asking questions that seem to me to be pertinent.

For example, on the work of the Holy Spirit: when John has told us that "the wind blows where it wills...so it is with everyone who is born from the Spirit", and,"when the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth" (Revised English Bible), how can the church today do anything other than keep awake to the possibilities that the Spirit might bring?

Surely the clear implications of John's theology here are that the Holy Spirit is not to be limited and that we are not yet in possession of God's whole truth, but are still being led into it?

The implications of your position are that you can say with certainty what was in the mind of Christ two thousand years ago(something the disciples were very rarely able to even though they spent all their time with him!); and aver with equal certainty that the Holy Spirit not only decided in the aftermath of Pentecost (when there was no church form that we would recognise as such) that some aspects of future church order were already settled for all time, but also that no possible future happenings would ever make Him change His mind. And that I find a hard capsule to swallow. How can one say, "He is the one doing the limiting, not me."? Truly, I find that an extraordinary statement!

I don't believe that Spirit theology can possibly lead to cut-and-dried "He will do this, He won't do that; He can do this, He can't do that" attitudes about the Holy Spirit within the church. On the other hand, nor do I believe that every passing breeze is necessarily the Spirit at work!

I do believe that passing breezes need to be examined and tested to see if they are of God or not. That is the challenge that faces theologians today.

Jeffrey Steel said...

Not under my skin at all. Happy to discuss it theologically. But, you have to tell me/us what hermeneutic and authority one uses to verify the validity that "new movements" are of the Spirit. Plus I believe I have put out a theological response to Ordo being of Divine Law and not human development. If something is of divine law how can something completely contradictory be of the same Spirit?

flyingvic said...

"You a teacher of Israel and ignorant of such things!" said Jesus.

How has the church ever decided upon matters that have come new to its attention? By prayer, by study, by learned and spiritual discussion and - where what is new has already been for a while in existence - by a careful study of its fruits.

"...a hard capsule to swallow that the Spirit has moved in such a way that if Jesus were alive today he would call women to be bishops, priests or deacons. This is simply unacceptable theologically."

Does not that give pause for thought? Because your theology has decided that Ordo is of Divine Law and not human development, your theology also dictates that Jesus would be as incapable today of involving women in apostleship as he was, for whatever reason, unwilling to do so two thousand years ago. Because your theology decided that Ordo is of Divine Law, the Holy Spirit COULD NOT decide to embrace particular changes today. When we find ourselves limiting the scope of the Almighty because of a particular theological position we have adopted, is not the first step to question whether the original theology was correct?

I get extremely uneasy, as you may have gathered, when it seems to me that all too fallible human logic is applied to the things of God with the apparent expectation that God will meekly follow along, persuaded by the force of the argument.

"If something is of divine law how can something completely contradictory be of the same Spirit?" I accept the force of the question. Do you accept that our understanding of that divine law might not yet be complete?

Wine in the Water said...

flyingvic,

I think that the essential problem here is whether we believe that the Holy Spirit might lead us to something that contradicts that to which the Holy Spirit once lead us.

The issue of women's ordination to the priesthood is not a new one. Every time it has come up in history, the Church has discerned that she cannot ordain women to the priesthood. So, faced with the same question now, we have a choice to make: either the Holy Spirit is guiding us to the same conclusion as before, or the Holy Spirit was not guiding the Church then.

That is the choice to make and the choice that the Anglican Communion has made is that the historical mind of the Church was not reliably guided by the Holy Spirit, for that is the only way for the Holy Spirit to contradict them now.
If the Holy Spirit

flyingvic said...

With respect, WitW, your analysis of the question only works if the Church in history was correct in its discernment that it had already been led by the Holy Spirit to an unchangeable position.

What if the judgement of the moment in human history - and therefore the direction in which we should be headed - should cause the Holy Spirit's guidance to change? I am not trying to be perverse here, nor am I suggesting that the Holy Spirit is 'skittish', for want of a better word. But perhaps it is the case that new movements in human society - in this instance the insight that the female of the species occupies a complementary rather than a subordinate position in God's creation - open new avenues for the grace of God to be received.

Consider the timing of the ministry of Christ. The opportunity for the spread of the Gospel provided in those days by the Pax Romana was unparalleled in human history. May we then rightly discern that the guidance of the Holy Spirit to God's faithful people changed from obedience to the Law of Moses to obedience to the Law of Christ? Or would we still insist that the Holy Spirit was in reality contradicting himself?

To offer another example, if I may, this time from golf! A dog-leg hole requires definite progress in one particular direction from the tee before a radical change of direction allows the golfer to approach his true destination. Was his original tee-shot misdirected because it was not aimed straight at the hole?

Wine in the Water said...

flyingvic,

I thought we might head this way. With regards to WO, we have to remember that the Church did not just make a decision once, she made the same decision over the course of centuries. And it is important to remember that when the Church made that repetitive discernment, it was made in terms of eternal Truths, not temporal truths. The expression of the Church's discernment about WO was in absolute rather than relative terms. If the Holy Spirit were to lead us in a different direction, it wouldn't be just a matter of a different age requiring a new approach to the same Truth, it would require rejecting the Truth as it had been discerned previously in exchange for a *different* Truth. It would mean that the historic Church is not reliable in discerning Truth.

To use your golf analogy, it would be to not just change the direction, but the goal. It would be to tee off believing that the flag were in one place, only to discover that the place aimed for was merely the elbow of the dog-leg and the flag were in fact somewhere else entirely.

I for one believe that it is quite possible for the Holy Spirit to lead the Church along different paths in different ages all to the same Truth. I fully accept that what is best for one age is not always best in another - the same for places - and that the Holy Spirit will guide us accordingly. I believe that different circumstances can require different ways to relate to Truth and that the Holy Spirit can illuminate that. But I believe that Truth is absolute, and while we might relate to that Truth differently from one age or place to another, the Truth remains the same.

On this issue, the Church has historically taught that, in absolute terms, the priesthood is to be reserved to males. If the priesthood is not to be reserved to males, then the Church has erred. Either she failed to discern the real Truth, or she mistook a temporal expression of the Truth for an absolute expression of it.

The fact remains that the Church has historically taught a male-only priesthood as an absolute, and so to change that now requires believing that the Church has erred, and is therefore not reliable for discerning Truth.

flyingvic said...

To err is human...

And if this is your first visit to the golf course and no-one has played it before so as to be able to draw you a complete map of the hole, you may indeed discover that what you have been aiming for up to a certain point in time has only been the elbow of the dog-leg.

But the basic question is still to be addressed: "...when the Church made that repetitive discernment, it was made in terms of eternal Truths, not temporal truths." So who is or was qualified to make that kind of decision, that the Truth we decide on today is eternal, but the Truth we decided on yesterday was only temporal, or vice versa?

The teaching of an absolute Truth is fine - so long as it really is the absolute Truth. If, however, what we treat here as being absolute is simply our teaching - even though we honestly believe it to be the truth - then we risk backing ourselves into an impossible position, namely, that we say not only that we cannot change something because it has always been so; but also that God cannot change something because the Church says it has always been so.

When the Church says that God cannot do something because the Church has always taught something else, then we are left to ask the question, "Which of the two should we believe?"

Jeffrey Steel said...

flying vic,

Please answer these questions:

1) Is priesthood a divine Sacrament?

2) Do you believe in the seven Sacraments?

3) Do you believe Sacraments communicate reality?

4) Are the elements used in the divine Sacraments essential for the Sacramental efficacy?

5) Can you change the symbol of water and still have baptism?

6) Can you change bread and wine and still have Mass?

7) Can you change marriage into anything other than a union between a man and a woman for life?

8) If you cannot change the these elemnts of the Sacraments and you believe Ordination is a Sacrament, why can you change this one or any one for that matter and it still be the Sacrament?

Until you answer these questions, your last post simply is only going round and round till everyone gets dizzy.

flyingvic said...

I'm sorry, I thought my last post was tolerably clear: if you present a choice between (a)the Church being wrong about the Holy Spirit, and (b)the Holy Spirit being wrong about the Church, there's really no contest, is there?

Your questions sublimely miss the point. My answers to 1-4 are Yes; to 5-7 are No - and in any case, water in Baptism and bread and wine in Communion equate to the laying-on of hands in Ordination; and 8? By your questions 5-7 you have already undermined this last one. But anyway, here is the crux of the argument between us.

You demand that, since the commission to Peter (and for all ages to come), the text and understanding of the Church's definition of the Sacrament of Ordination must be gender-specific: it can only refer to the male of the species.

My understanding of this Sacrament is that the outward and visible sign of the inward and spiritual grace of Ordination is the laying-on of hands; and that there is no gender-specific qualification here any more than there is in any other Sacrament (apart from Marriage, for obvious and agreed reasons).

It all goes back, I'm afraid, to your insistance that Ordo is of the nature of Divine Truth: everything else you have written flows logically from that. But if that premise is mistaken...? Are you able to offer incontrovertible evidence (beyond, "because the Church says so") that your premise is correct?

Jeffrey Steel said...

Sure. The evidence is in my latest post.

http://frjeffreysteel.blogspot.com/2009/12/priesthood-and-sacrament-my-doctrine-is.html

flyingvic said...

Evidence, yes. Incontrovertible? Certainly not. You simply go back to the choosing of the Apostles and their immediate successors and extrapolate from that (a)that the main function of the priesthood - apostles by now mysteriously having changed into priests - was to offer the sacrifice of the mass 'in persona Christi' and (b)that this particular form of church order was to be fixed for all time because that is what Christ had in mind two thousand years ago.

Frankly, both of these propositions stretch credulity beyond its limits. Yes, the Church developed many things over the years, including the threefold order of bishops, priests and deacons; and yes, I am sure that the Church was led by the Holy Spirit in doing so. But led already to its final destination on this or that piece of doctrine? Are there some matters - including priesthood - about which we have already been led into the WHOLE truth? And since those who kept close company with Christ during his earthly ministry patently did not understand all that he had in mind at that time, how can we presume, two thousand years later, to perceive his intentions for all time with perfect clarity?

I am not arguing FOR the ordination of women, even though the church of which I am privileged to be a member has adopted the practice. I am arguing for the freedom of the Holy Spirit, who, I strongly suspect, is a great deal wiser and knows a great deal more of the whole truth than anyone in any of our churches. That he will lead us into all truth is a sacred promise; but as with the OT prophets, there is no clear timetable available for our arrival at complete comprehension.

Jeffrey Steel said...

I think this comment flyingvic only goes to show the wisdom of Jesus declaring Peter as the 'Rock' of the Church. Anything and everything can come under your hermeneutical position. Why you think a divine law is limiting the Holy Spirit for all times is beyond my comprehension. The whole point behind divine law is that it is true for all times and in all places and not determined by sociological, psychological or anthropological matters but only on the basis of Christ. The test of the Holy Spirit is determined authoritative when it is not in complete contradiction to what has come before. If it is, how can you say it came from the same Holy Spirit? How do you know?

Jeffrey Steel said...

Eligibility after the example of Christ is enough evidence for me. The Catholic Church still teaches this and upholds this. Protestantism is all over the map on this one. The lack of unity in Protestantism is another sign to me that the Holy Spirit is absent from such novelties.

flyingvic said...

I am puzzled by your puzzlement. If a Divine Law is true for all times then not even the Holy Spirit can change it. That sounds pretty limiting to me.

The Church's traditional position, as I understand it, has been that because Christ chose only male disciples there can only now be male priests; and once the Church decided that this was not just a decision 'of the day' but an eternally defining Divine Law, there can be no change.

To put it as simply as I can, for the Church effectively to say that because God decided this then, God cannot decide something else now is to elevate the Church's judgement of itself above the power of almighty God.

In John chapter 3 Jesus speaks eloquently of the freedom of the Spirit. Do you seek to deny that freedom? You are in danger of so doing if you emphasise your theology of the Church at the expense of your theology of the Spirit.

flyingvic said...

"Eligibility after the example of Christ is enough evidence for me."

Jesus chose women as the first witnesses of his resurrection. Paul prohibited women from speaking in church.

From this lack of unity do you divine that the Holy Spirit was absent from both these novelties?