In an email exchange a number of weeks ago, I responded to a Protestant minister who let me know how disheartened he was to learn that I had become a Roman Catholic. I listened to his talk on line that was called 'Mariolotry' in a series on Church History he was giving at his parish church. As a result of reading Benedict XVI and von Balthasar's book Mary: The Church at the Source, I responded to his concerns and thoughts about Catholics bringing Mary to the place of divine worship in our spirituality. It was the above book that helped me to really understand the ministry of Our Lady and so I responded with the following from my reading of it. I realise it is a one-sided email but I hope that it communicates my understanding of Mary's place in our spiritual life which I gleaned from reading the Holy Father and von Balthasar's book.Marian piety is never expressed within a vacuum. When her relationship is described as 'Mother of the Church' it is not as structure, as you described it, but as a person and in person. It is incarnational in relation to God consisting of the ontological freedom of the creature vis-a-vis the Creator and of the 'body' of Christ in relationship to the head. Marian piety is of the heart, and fixes itself deeply on the being of man. Therefore, Marian piety, in the words of Benedict XVI, is 'Advent piety.' Jesus was not born in a cocoon. He was and is flesh of her flesh and bone of her bone. Marian piety is ALWAYS focused on the LORD. Marian piety focuses on the LORD who has come and the Church learns with Mary to stay in his presence (unlike his disciples who left him at the passion). And so, Marian piety is passion-centred as she participates in the rejection by being given away (given to St. John at the crucifixion) only to participate in the true coming that took place in the outpouring of the Spirit (Pentecost). In Luke's narrative we clearly see his weaving of these joyful and sorrowful mysteries.
This theology naturally leads to the eschatological nature of Marian piety in her Assumption that you mentioned. As Advent broadens into eschatology, says Benedict XVI, so also her assumption is in keeping with the logic of biblical faith. Marian piety must be kept strictly bound to Christology and must not be withdrawn or abstractly viewed into partial mysteries of the Christian faith but open the Church up to the breadth of the mystery of Christ in his incarnational ministry. As Benedict XVI said, 'Marian piety will always stand within the tension between theological rationality and believing affectivity.' These must be held in balance but this becomes difficult in our time where man is falling into an increasing disintegration of mere rationalism. Marian piety within its proper context of Christology helps the Church to constantly rediscover this unity by maintaining the purity of heart from the heart as seen in Mary.
Whoever is to take the Gospels seriously must take the words of and about Mary seriously. In Catholic understanding this is not isolated in itself but is ALWAYS embedded in and ordered to Christ (and thus it is ALWAYS Trinitarian in its nature) and towards the Church as Mother. As the Mother of God (defined at the Council of Ephesus 431 where she was given this title and anyone who denied this was a heretic) she too is keen that she not be elevated in the divine sphere and so overlook Christ's work. Everything about Mary points us to her Son.
The Catholic Church is clear when She distinguishes between veneration and worship just as the Old Testaments saints were venerated and not worshipped. Where the confusion lies is in your mis-understanding of what the Marian prayers actually refer to, which is the larger context of our relationship to Christ, to the Father and to the Church our Mother. But, your caution that is a result of an uncatechized people is a strongly heard warning to us all and should be heeded that she never be elevated to the divine sphere and the Catholic Church warns of the same.
Let me briefly make a final statement about the Marian prayers you mentioned. Marian prayers always lead us into a concrete (incarnational) closeness to Jesus and to the whole mystery of redemption and they are never isolated from that. Your lecture tended to treat them abstractly. Let me use just three of the most popular prayers as an example of all that I have said above where I found misrepresentation in your talk.
1) The Hail Mary: Hail Mary, full of grace, the LORD is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
As you will know these words come from the Angel Gabriel and Elisabeth's response to Mary. The petition added at the end is the inclusion of what was said about Mary at Ephesus 431 and is straightforward with the concern of the sinful Christian in the Church imploring intercession for the present and the all-decisive hour of our death.
2) The Angelus which is prayed three times a day at 6:00 am, noon, and 6 pm. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary. And she conceived of the Holy Spirit. Hail, Mary, full of grace...Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done unto me according to Thy word. Hail, Mary, full of grace...And the Word was made flesh. And dwelt among us. Hail, Mary, full of grace...Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray. Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord, Thy grace into our hearts, that we to whom the incarnation of Christ, Thy Son, was made known by the message of an angel, may by His Passion and Cross be brought to the glory of His Resurrection. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
The three short sentences above are Christocentric as you can see. This prayer does not go one step beyond the pattern of scripture. The three additional Aves allows us a moment to linger with our fallen humanity in whom the Incarnation was realized and we are called upon to remember the miracle of the Lord's coming and that this coming of Christ is to remain in us if we are to be a Christian.
3) The rosary. The rosary weaves everything pertaining to the history of our salvation into the Marian prayer. It makes present the mysteries of Jesus' life from his youth to his glorious return and to which it draws us to Mary as the archetype of the Church. The entire prayer of the rosary is always introduced by the Apostle's Creed and the prayer is given with Mary who is the compass of faithfulness to her Son. She is the one who accompanies Jesus from the cradle to the grave and beyond in his transfigured life (Acts 1) and has a unique place in his destiny as a hope that all believers are to look to, her Assumption.
All of these prayers are not required for common and personal prayer. The Catholic Church never has and never will look to anyone other than Jesus died and risen for our salvation. Mary has the most honoured place among all believers as the ONE and ONLY who gave her flesh and blood to Jesus' humanity. That unity is different than anyone else's in all of humanity. Therefore the Church venerates her more than any other saint in its communion of saints and how could it be any different? She said NO, in order to say YES to God and we are called to imitate her piety in this. This is the basic theological apologetic for Marian piety that is always to lead all Christians to Blessed One of her womb, Jesus.
I feel your talk took Marian piety from its context and distorted it to a point unrecognisable to any catechized Catholic Christian. In your email you welcomed me to point out any misrepresentations and these are the immediate ones that stand out to me. You must realise that Marian piety began way before the Fourth Latern Council or Aquinas. It is very early in the Apostolic Fathers who wrote prior to the gathering of the full Canon of Holy Scripture. I think academic honesty demands from us all to read and communicate what is there in the historical record. It was this uncovering of the Church that was always held from my eyes that allowed me to discover the truth and the beauty of the one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of which any personal desires or opinions could no longer isolate me from her beauty and authority. It is the only way I knew how to make John 17 effectual for my life and the life of my family.
The question of needing reformation is a right question that should be joined to the question of whether this is done inside or outside the Church. I would like to discuss all of this in a friendly way. One of the things that I believe could help you, at least in understanding what the Catholic Church teaches and how it comes to theological statements beyond the scriptures, is to understand her hermeneutic that is far different from the one you gave in your lecture which left out the concept of authority, canon and the role of Tradition in the Church's teaching ministry. I think without this foundation one can never rightly argue against her teaching because what happens is what Luther himself once said (after he left Rome) was 'that every man hath a pope in his belly.'
It must also be remembered that Marian devotion and prayers to Mary is not a command but an encouraged practice for the benefit of the Christian. One's particular rhetorical explanation of Mary's ministry is not necessarily dogmatic. That does not answer your questions, I realise, but one cannot be fair and substantive in a refutation if it is something you personally claim to 'not get'. Have you read Hans Urs von Balthasar and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's (Pope Benedict XVI) book, Mary: The Church at the Source? I recommend it to you.
17 comments:
That is beautifully expressed. I'm going to link to this post from my little Catholic Convert blog. It helps when my Protestant family and friends (or former by their choice) read my blog.
May the peace of Christ be with you,
Teri
Just something I found interesting while reading…
I have a book called “Saint Worship and the Worship of Mary: Why Devotion to the Saints Makes Sense” by Orestes Brownson. In this book the author briefly discusses the term “worship” and how it has evolved over time. It is proper to say that we do indeed “worship” the Saints, as long as we realize that our worship is not that highest form of worship which is due only to God. “Veneration” as you say, is offered to the Saints. In times past this term was used to signify respect, deep devotion, and great love. You may say to someone “I worship the ground you walk on,” or referring to an official of esteem “Your Worship” or “His or Her worship.” There are, in brief, degrees of worship, but the ultimate, and highest form is reserved for God alone. What is this type of worship? The author argues that the highest form of worship is sacrifice. Following his argument the author says that the worship Protestants offer to God is identical, and of no greater degree, than the worship offered to the Saints by Catholics. The reason for this is that Protestants are unable to offer the highest form of worship which is due to God alone, that being sacrifice. Protestant worship is by nature incomplete. Why? There is no Eucharist. Depending on the situation it may not be wise to say “I worship Mary,” because the audience may not have the knowledge that helps them understand the degrees of worship, but the reality remains.
Anon,
I believe I heard someone make a similar point regarding Protestant worship: lacking the sacrificial element of the Mass, their worship, whether public or private, is relegated solely to prayer. Thus, to a Protestant, prayer is worship. Thus, to pray to Mary or any other saints is, to a Protestant, to worship Mary or the saints. For what it's worth.
Hello, just came over to view your blog from Fr Tim's, and thought this was a very interesting post, since I have just been reading "Mary and the Fathers of the Church - The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought, by Luigi Gambero" (Ignatius press). It has constantly been in my mind that some lovely Protestant friends of ours, who have some weird ideas of "what Catholics believe about Mary" might benefit from reading it...you have inspired me to pass it on!
Many blessings to you and your family on your spiritual path, Elizabeth.
In the end we come to the same problem that is that the current Protestant generation, for the most part, is simply too detached from historical or rather basic Christianity.
In other words the early Protestants might of wanted a "reformation" but they ended up with a "re-invention" and the most extreme cases "always re-inventing."
Doh! Another book I need to get! Thanks for the article, and welcome back - we've missed you! :)
Pax Christi,
Jeff Holston
I've been Catholic for 11 years and I'm just now really coming into a great love for Our Lady. It takes a while sometimes. I just had to be patient with myself... plust it takes effort, something I didn't realize for many years ~ being Catholic, truly, deeply Catholic, takes active effort on my part. Seems obvious but I'm sorry, these days there's so much liberal wishy-washy going on that you find yourself being told more often then not that anything that is difficult or challenging about the Faith must either be discarded or ignored. So I've felt as if I've had to learn to be Catholic on my own most of the time!
Welcome to the Catholic laity :-)
Marian Piety : How does one get there from Protestantism?
Poetry has been the key for me, try www.spreadtheword.org.uk : Threads Started By: vesper..
SONGS & DREAMS FOR SAD SISTER DEPTFORD A Deo et Rege : PART1
Spiral into the deep unconscious
Spiral into eternity
Mary Queen of living waters
Seep ever deeper into me
Round and round that mystic whirlpool
Round and round eternal sea
Mary conquer those depths uncharted
Mary conquer the inner me
Christ first man of composite nature
Christ the sacrifice to free
Mary Mother of our Creator
Accept this sacrifice of me
In XtO "Vesper"
'What is still true - astonishingly,in the twenty/first century - is that Queen Elizabeth II retains the title Henry VIII took for himself:Supreme Head of the Church Of England,Defender of the Faith and - in theory at least - God's chosen representative in England'.
Will HRH The Prince of Wales make the same claims when it is his turn to rule England?
Daily devotion to the Rosary and other Marian prayers is an experiential way of understanding Mary's essential role. As far as books go, Louis Marie de Montfort's "True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin" is a well-explained and empassioned treatise on, not just the validity, but the necessity of Marian devotion. It discusses the heretics who "would rather carry a snake than a rosary", including Catholics who look down on Marian devotion as though it was only for "old women" and not for everyone.
I don't understand how some people can think that God and Mary are opposed to one another, that prayers to Mary are somehow taking away from prayers to God. Mary perfects our prayers and sends them on to God. It is humility to send an intercessor before the King rather than approaching Him directly. Esther is always a good analogy, Mary has been made Queen for our sake, not her own.
I can hardly think of titles and devotions for Mary which would be excessive. Certain feminists have tried to elevate her to an image of the divine feminine, to a goddess. This was portrayed in the movie (and book) "Mists of Avalon" where the pagan earth goddess is identified with the Christian Mary. But that doesn't really elevate her since it denies her as a real human person and relegates her to a typology.
Mary can be called "divine", as de Montfort calls her, not because she innately has the divine nature as God does, but because she is and has always been God's completely. Since she has been elevated above all others, it could also be said that she is the greatest "partaker of the divine nature" (2Pe 1:4). So she is a goddess, not in the pagan sense, but in the Christian sense -- the highest of those who are called "gods" (Jn 10:33-35, Ps. 82 (81):6). So even the highest possible title of Mary that could be conceived, that of "goddess", can be understood in an orthodox way.
All Marian devotion is Christological, it always comes back to Christ. As Catholics, we are centered on the Incarnation and Mary is central to the Incarnation, not merely adjunct to it. I just finished the apocalyptic novel "Lord of the World" by Msgr. Benson and in it, a character (Catholic priest-turned-Freemason) explains that everything in Catholic theology and practice derives from the Incarnation -- "all the way down to thuribles and holy water."
Worship of God is the Greek "latria", worship/veneration of the saints is "dulia" and worship/veneration of Mary (since she is greatest of the saints) is "hyperdulia". To praise Mary is to give greater praise to God, Mary keeps nothing for herself. The whole point is to praise God. How can any Protestant object to praising God better?
I am a youngish middle aged man and a former evangelical protestant who had to overcome the hurdles of Catholicism. I have been transformed by my discovery of Mary's place and role in the Divine "Economy" as a whole. The Glories of Mary, True Devotion to Mary, The Secret of Mary etc are all worth obtaining. Really it was my study of the Fatima Message that spurred me on to a deeper study and appreciation of our Blessed Mother. The presentation of experts on the Fatima Message included long detailed explanations and many proofs for all the Marian dogmas.
I feel as a man that I am a better man because of this great love for the Blessed Virgin. It has changed me, made me more gentle, patient, willing to sacrifice, to open my heart and not only my mind to receive grace and truth. It is not only for "old women"; it is for everyone
http://www.fatimaondemand.org/en/index.php/conferences/india-2008/father-paul-kramer/156-mediatrix-of-all-grace-qonly-i-can-help-youq
Learing purity of the heart from the heart may sound like a good place to learn it, but I don't find it a convincing premise supporting prayers to Mary. Even if Ephesus used the phrase "Mother of God," we weren't enouraged there to bring her petitions. We can embrace everything the Gospels reveal of Mary's heart, but there is no encouragement, exhortation, suggestion, needless to even mention "command", to petition her for anything. Neither is there a referecene in the entire New Testament to encourage us to do so. Once again, I find Roman Catholic theology encourging a mystical embrace, a heart affectation, some pietistic acceptance of something completely Biblically unfounded. If I say I don't "get it", it is not because I am not rational, nor is it a refelection of my "hard heart" or "impure heart." I trust I have a heart which recognizes the beautiful submission of Mary to God's saving purpose announced to her by Gabriel. I certainly have been moved in my heart in contemplating the announcement and fulfillment of Simeon's words regarding the "sword that would pierce" her own soul too. I simply find your arguments one more example of how hard protestants going to Rome try to convince other protestants that there is sufficient grounds for praying to Mary and praying the Rosary. If you ask what it would take to convince me to ever countenance praying to Mary, the answer is simple: One shred of evidence from the Scriptures. Such has yet to be convincingly produced, argued deductively or inductively by any Roman Catholic apologist I have heard. And ask anyone who knows me, I have a tender heart to a fault. I try to help anybody, even people moving to England. It is the love of Christ which compels us. Asking Mary to pray for us keeps us one person removed from the One Who said, "Come unto Me." He didn't invite us to Peter. He didn't invite us to Mary, and He didn't invite us to Mary's heart. I still wish you all the best and as I do all the faithful saints. I share with you your love for our Lord. I respect Mary, but I confess, I do look past her in my time of need. For on the throne of grace, from where my help comes, there sits the Lover of my soul, which has "None other Lamb".
As a Protestant minister, I remain unconvinced that the key to embracing the role of Mary in the Roman Catholic Faith is understanding the "incarnational" aspect or personal aspect of her relationship with Christ. I think the idea of "learing purity of heart from the heart" is simply another way of saying that we need to "feel" our way to Mary as opposed to the implied soul-damaging manner of "thinking" our way to Mary. Many Christians of the Protestant persuasion take seriously the distinction between hearts of flesh and hearts of stone. It is through the grace of God in Christ that a heart of stone is changed to a heart of flesh. I contend, with other Protestant voices (of which I assume have been or are attached to minds as well as hearts)that Mary is not essential to the cultivation of a pure heart or a tender and submissive one. However, as an example of a tender heart, as a Protestant, I do prefer her to Veronica.
Thanks for coming by Dwight. Yes, you don't have to agree with me to comment here one only needs to remain respectful when disagreeing. So, let me ask one question and provide some evidence against your notion that Nicaea I didn't embrace and continue to embrace the very early tradition of the saints in the liturgy of the Mass (prior to the canon being completed) and following its completion. Please do not the Protestant ecclesial community's icon St. Augustine and his take on this issue. Catholics believe we live and pray with the LIVING, not the DEAD.
1) How did the prayers of the saints end up in the bowls of incense in the hands of the 24 elders and angels at the Altar in heaven? How did they get my prayers? (Rev. 5:8 one shred of biblical evidence)
The Fathers prior and post Nicaea I
Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] 'But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask Him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him?'" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy" (Letters 56 [60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto thee do I again return. Thou are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs unto the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son's love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing mother, of the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of thee . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father--the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
Ambrose of Milan
"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance" (The Six Days' Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).
Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).
Augustine
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
Augustine
"At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
Augustine
"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).
I would highly suggest looking into Mark Shea's new book "Mary, Mother of the Son" (in three volumes). I think he does a pretty good job of answering some of the questions brought up here.
http://www.mark-shea.com/books.html
-NDA
Dear Jeffrey Steel
Last night I dreamt of a UNITY IN THE COMMUNITY development here in London. This Navy Arms, New King Street development in Deptford SE8involved ice breaking prayers between poor English and Irish families i.e "Hail Mary full of grace...etc "
I'd recommend that you visit the Convoy's Thames Gateway site in Deptford where the late Guardian of Walsingham, Father Diamond of St Paul's SE8 is still fondly remembered by many.
Our Lady of the Assumption pray for us!
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