Monday, 17 March 2008

Is Transubstantiation Bodily Enough?

by Father Alvin Kimel

"The colour and shape of the host is not the colour and shape of Christ’s body; the location of the host, its being on the altar does not mean that Christ’s body is located on the altar; the fact that the host is moved about, say in procession, does not mean that Christ’s body is being moved about. When we do things to the host, such as eating it, we are not doing anything to Christ’s body. What we are doing is completing the significance of the signs" (Herbert McCabe, God Still Matters, p. 118).

If one did not know the author, and if one did not know well the teachings of St Thomas Aquinas on the Eucharist, one might well be excused for thinking that the above statement was written by a Protestant theologian, perhaps of Reformed or Anglican persuasion. Certainly this is not the horrid doctrine of transubstantiation condemned by the 39 Articles: "Transubstantiation ... is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions." But the author in fact is a renowned Catholic theologian, and his statement would receive the approbation of no less than the Angelic Doctor himself.

As classically formulated by St Thomas Aquinas, the doctrine of transubstantiation teaches that the glorified Christ is present under the sacramental species in a non-local, non-spatial, non-circumscribable mode. The bodily presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is a presence that is proper to the sacrament:
The body of Christ is not in this sacrament in the way a body is in place. The dimensions of a body in place correspond with the dimensions of the place that contains it. Christ's body is here in a special way that is proper to the sacrament. For this reason we say that the body of Christ is on different altars, not as in different places, but as in the sacrament. In saying this we do not mean that Christ is only symbolically there, although it is true that every sacrament is a sign, but we understand that Christ's body is there, as we have said, in a way that is proper to the sacrament. (ST 3a.75.2)

Christ's body is not in this sacrament in the normal way an extended body exists, but rather just as if it were purely and simply substance. Now every body that is in a place is in place precisely as it is an extended body, that is, it corresponds to the place that contains it according to its dimensions. It follows then that Christ's body is in this sacrament not as in a place, but purely in the way that substance is, in the way that substance is contained by the dimensions. It is to the substance of the bread that the substance of Christ's body succeeds in this sacrament. Hence, as the substance of the bread was not under its dimensions in the way an extended body is in a place, but in the way which is proper to substance to be under dimensions, so likewise the body of Christ is not under the dimensions of the bread locally.

Note also that the substance of Christ's body is not the subject of the dimensions of the bread as the substance of the bread was. The bread by reason of the dimensions was localized in a place, because it was related to a place by dimensions that were its own. But the substance of Christ's body is related to that place by dimensions that are not its own; and contrariwise, the dimensions of Christ's own body are related to that place only in so far as the substance of his body is. But that is not the way in which a body is localized. Hence, Christ's body in this sacrament is in no way localized. (ST 3a.76.5)

Now is is not the same thing for Christ to be, simply, and for him to be under the sacrament. Now, according to this mode of his being under the sacrament, Christ is not moved locally in any strict sense, but only after a fashion. Christ is not in this sacrament as if he were in a place, as we have already said; and what is not in a place is not moved locally, but is only said to be moved when that in which it is is moved. ... Something after this fashion we say that Christ is moved indirectly, according to the mode of existence which is his in this sacrament, in which he does not exist as in a place. (ST 3a.76.7)

Now it cannot be that it is the actual body of Christ which is broken. First, it is outside all change and we can do nothing to it. Second, it is present in all its completeness under every part of the quantity, as we saw above, and that runs counter to the whole idea of being broken into parts. It remains then that the fraction takes place in the dimensive quantity of the bread, where all the other accidents also find their subject. ... Whatever is eaten as under its natural form, is broken and chewed as under its natural form. But the body of Christ is not eaten as under its natural form, but as under the sacramental species. For this reason Augustine, commenting on the text of John, the flesh availeth nothing, says, understand this as spoken of the flesh in the way some people understand Christ carnally. They thought of eating his flesh as if it had been treated like butcher's meat. The body of Christ in itself is not broken, but only in its sacramental appearance. And this is the sense in which we should understand Berengarius's profession of faith; the fraction and the chewing with the teeth refer to the sacramental species, underneath which the body of Christ is really present. (ST 3a.77.8)
Exegesis of these passages is beyond my competence, but the general thrust of Aquinas seems clear: the presence of Christ in the sacrament is of such a kind that one may not attribute to the body of Christ the dimensive, spatial, and visible qualities of the bread and wine to it. This is the point of Aquinas's separation of accidents and substance: the accidents of the bread and wine remain but their substance is converted into the substance of the Body and Blood, and substance can only be intellectually apprehended. We may locate Christ at the accidents, which now signify his presence---he is contained under them analogous to the way substance is ordinarily united to accidents---yet he is not the subject of the accidents. We may not say that he shares the color, size, or any other property of the elements; nor may we say that he is moved when the elements are moved or that he is broken when the Host is broken or that the communicants literally touch, eat, and drink him when they touch, eat, and drink the elements. His eucharistic presence is sacramental, non-local, intangible, spiritual. As Timothy McDermott writes:
For what Thomas makes clear is that Christ's substance is not present in the way that bread's substance was: underlying the dimensions and sensible properties of bread in such a way that those properties become Christ's physical properties, or that Christ's body is in physico-chemical and spatial contact with the environment. What he does not perhaps make equally clear is the way in which Christ's substance is really present: as the new significance (to be grasped by faith) of what previously only signified bread. (Summa Theologiæ: A Concise Translation, p. 546)
My question is this: is the transubstantiated presence of Christ bodily enough? This is not an inappropriate question, since Aquinas contends that Christ intends to commune with us in the Eucharist in a bodily fashion:
It fits in perfectly with that charity of Christ which led him to take a real body having human nature and unite it to himself in order to save us. And because it is the very law of friendship that friends should live together, as Aristotle teaches, he promises us his bodily presence as a reward, in the text of Matthew, wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together. In the meantime, however, he has not left us without his bodily presence in this our pilgrimage, but he joins us to himself in this sacrament in the reality of his body and blood. For this reason he says, he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. Hence this sacrament, because it joins Christ so closely to us, is the sign of the extreme of his love and lifts our hope on high. (ST 3a.75.1)
This is a wonderful passage. It expresses something deep and true in the Catholic experience of the Eucharist. But the notion of "bodily presence" is a difficult one. How bodily can Christ truly said to be when we immediately qualify his presence by insisting upon its intangibility and illocality? It is made even more difficult if one holds, as most Western theologians have, that the glorified natural body of Christ is circumscriptively located in heaven: to be in one place is not to be in another place. Perhaps there's a grain or two of truth in Hermann Sasse's remark: "Yes, Thomas Aquinas was a Semi-Calvinist. He anticipated the ideas of the Swiss reformers which in time totally destroyed the Sacrament."

But in fairness to Aquinas, I must note that most of his interpreters have understood Aquinas's formulation of transubstantiation as securing the most intimate bodily presence. Thus William Barden, one of Aquinas's English translators:
Under the appearances of bread and wine lie the body and the blood, as close to these appearances as was the substance of the bread and wine to the accidents before the change. It would be impossible to conceive a closer form of bodily presence. The accidents of the bread inhere in the bread and contain it. After the change they do not inhere in the body of Christ; but they contain it, just as really, just as closely, as they had contained the substance of the bread. There you have real presence at its fullest. And that is Christ's gift to us in the Eucharist. All love is communion. Christ's love must find expression in communion. Only a divine ingenuity could have devised that means of communion which is the real presence of the body and blood and of the whole Christ under the appearances of bread and wine, that we may get close to him in the bread of life and take it into our very hands and eat it. ... True, we do not touch the Christ within the host; nor does he touch us, except at the time of sacramental eating. But our very local nearness to the host which is as close to him as accident is close to substance---a nearness which is most intimate at the moment of communion---is the ultimate expression of divine love in our regard. We eat him really, though not naturally---that would be horrible; we eat him really, but sacramentally. There could not be a closer sign of our being made one with him in love. (ST [Blackfriars edition], 58:206, 211)
The accidents/substance distinction thus allows Aquinas to insist upon a spiritual, non-carnal, non-physical presence of Christ but also to assert the real presence of Christ in such a way that we can speak, at least analogously, of his bodily presence, a bodily presence mediated by the species. But what does bodily presence mean here?

Herbert McCabe's construal of body as a "mode of presence" certainly helps. McCabe avoids the language of substance and instead focuses on sacrament as communication-event, as language. Christ is personally present in his self-communication to us in the gospel and the sacramental life of the Church. I find myself assenting to the entirety of McCabe's analysis, yet I remain dissatisfied. There is a loss here. It feels less corporeal than Aquinas's version of transubstantiation, particularly as described by Barden. Perhaps it really isn't, but it feels that way. I'm sure that McCabe would tell me to stop thinking of body in physical, material terms, and no doubt he would be right. I am no philosopher. Yet did not Jesus himself tell us that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, and isn't that what we we do in the Eucharist? Do we not undercut this evangelical assertion by McCabe's (and Thomas's) qualification that we do not actually eat the body of Christ with our teeth but only the sacramental sign? Precisely at this point the sacramental bodiliness of Jesus becomes almost ethereal.

A few years ago I offered some speculations on this topic in an article published in Pro Ecclesia (Winter 2004): "Eating Christ." I proposed that the union between the sacramental signs and the Body and Blood must be understood in such a way that it makes sense for us to say that when we crush the bread with our teeth we crush Christ with our teeth. Yes, the eating is in a sacramental mode, for the body of Christ is presented to us in a sacramental mode. McCabe states that when we eat the host we fulfill the significance of the sign. And this is right. Bread is to be eaten and wine is to be drunk. Sacramental believing is not a disembodied event. We believe the eucharistic promises by eating and drinking; but what we eat and drink is Body and Blood, given to us as bread and wine. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53-56).

My reflection since that article has not taken me much further. But reading Herbert McCabe over the past two months has directed me back to the writings of the Lutheran theologian, Robert W. Jenson. A conversation between Jenson and McCabe would seem particularly illuminating, for both share a common understanding of sacrament as communication. Jenson's reflections on embodiment may provide the corporeality that McCabe's formulation of eucharistic presence seems to lack. In his book Visible Words Jenson specifies several characteristics of body. The first characteristic in his list is particularly pertinent to our discussion: body is the object-presence of a person:
Personal presence occurs always as address, as the word-event by which one person enters the reality of another. This entrance may be destructive: it may initiate a mutual reality of lordship-and-slavery, and of struggle over who will be which. If it does not, it is because the address is such as to enable and solicit reply; i.e., because the one who enters grants himself as object also of the other's intention. Contrary to much of what has been said on the matter, authentic personal mutuality depends precisely on mutual self-objectification. If I address you, I make you my object. If I do not seek to enslave you, I so address you as also to grant myself as your object. Of course, there is indeed the treating of the other "as a thing" which has been so often decried; but what this consists in, is that I seek so to make you my object as to withhold my own self-objectification.

The total of possibilities, that I grant myself as object for those I address, is "my body." The body is the self, as the describable and so intendable object of an other self. The body is the available self. (pp. 21-22)
Our bodies, we might say, are our locatibility. Your body allows me to find you and address you. It allows me to direct my words to you quite specifically. By your body I recognize you to be you and can thus intend you in particular, as opposed to intending everyone or no one. And my body, in turn, enables you to locate me and address me in reply. My body is my availability to you, as yours is your availability to me. As Jenson succinctly states: "My body is myself, in my address and presence to you, insofar as I am available to you, locatable by you, there for you, addressable in turn by you. And it is the visibility of my address to you that constitutes such reciprocity" (Christian Dogmatics, II:304). If we do not seek to dominate each other, we will allow ourselves to be objects one to the other. We tend to think of objectification as destructive of personal relations, but Jenson sees it as necessary for personal freedom. Embodiment creates space for conversation, love, and mutual exchange. Only thus is community possible.

To confess the eucharistic real presence is to confess the embodiment of Christ as bread and cup. Here, I propose, is the weakness of McCabe's presentation of transubstantiation. It feels too spiritual precisely because it eschews the language of object-presence. McCabe clearly identifies the consecrated elements as the body of Christ; yet his linguistic-symbolic formulation of transubstantiation, with all of its qualifications, albeit necessary to clarify that the eucharistic conversion is not a chemical, material change, loses the density of the older tradition. Whatever else bread and wine are, they are objects, and they do not cease to be objects when they become the language of God. Is this not what the medievals were trying to say when they specified the consecrated bread and wine as both sacramentum and res et sacramentum---signs that contain the grace they signify, the Body and Blood of Christ, which in turn signify the communion of the baptized in the eternal life of the Holy Trinity? If the Body and Blood are to function as signs, then the Body and Blood must be there on the altar, placed in our hands and mouths, to be apprehended by faith. The loaf and cup mean the Body and Blood of Christ and thus are the Body and Blood. We hear the words "This is my body," "this is my blood," but we are confronted with what appears to be ordinary food to be eaten and drunk. Yet in faith we believe that here we encounter the king of the universe, present as sign and body, word and object. Jenson again:
To say that Christ's body is present as the bread and cup is therefore to say that these indisputably available things, the bread and cup, are his availability: that where they are present he not only has us before him but allows us to have him before us, not only touches us but allows us to touch him, not only sees us but allows us to see him. It is to say that as these things he---in the language of the church---gives himself to us as an object of our experience. "Do you seek me?" he says, "Here is the place to look." (A Large Catechism, p. 59)
We need not be hesitant to use the language of objects to speak of the eucharistic presence, for it is the risen and glorified Christ who objectifies himself as bread and cup. He makes himself locatable, visible, tangible, corporeal, edible. In a word, he makes himself sacramental.

Comments on "Is Transubstantiation Bodily Enough?"

 

Blogger Matt said ... (17 March 2008 13:19) : 

Thank you, Fr. Kimel!

Do you know how Jenson would deal with the presence of Christ now at "the right hand of the Father"? Any ideas about his construal of Christ's "object-presence" at thousands of altars?

I guess these questions are prompted by your very helpful comments about Thomas Aquinas. I find myself agreeing with Barden that, with all of the limits and qualifications, with all his statements about the illocal and "sacramental presence" of Christ in the Eucharist, Thomas is giving us as much as he can. And these limits are not motivated merely by philosophical concerns (like the ones suggested by my questions above) but by concerns about maintaining an orthodox Christology.

What I mean by that is, unlike the traditional Lutheran position (if I understand it correctly), Thomas's doctrine of transubstantiation preserves the integrity of Christ's body. The Lutherans used to talk about Christ's body participating in the divine ubiquity (at least in the polemical construal of the Reformed). But how can a REAL body be everywhere? Well, Thomas Aquinas would say that certain popular understandings of the Eucharist in his day would make necessary some sort of bi- or multi-locality (that is, the same body being in different places at the same time). Real human bodies cannot do these things. This is why the Calvinists (rightly?) said that the Lutheran position verged on the heresy of Monophysitism (that the divine nature "consumed" the human nature, etc.)

Sorry about the scattered comments, but I guess what I'm suggesting is that Thomas' "semi-Calvinism" is motivated by concerns related to the very heart of the Catholic tradition: the orthodox teaching that Christ is one person in two natures.

 

Blogger Pontificator said ... (17 March 2008 13:35) : 

Matt, Jenson follows Luther and John Damascene and rejects all spatial construals of Heaven. He therefore does not have to solve the problem of overcoming the spatial distance between Heaven and the altars of the Church, a problem that determined the reflections of both Aquinas and Calvin.

Thus Jenson:

"All the created universe ... is simply one place before God, and so also before the risen Jesus at 'God's right hand.' The question of Christ's bodily presence at the Supper is therefore not a question of getting from one place to another but of availability to us in the places where he chooses to be found and directs us to seek him. All places are one in their accessibility to him" (*A Large Catechism*, p. 60)

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (17 March 2008 20:21) : 

Thanks for the post, Fr. Al. It was helpful for my continuing formulating of the RC doctrine. Though, I think we are just at an impasse. Regardless of creative reformulations of "bodily," it is fundamentally a spiritalizing move or an opting for some unknown "third" element of reality, to which we have no access. Thus, Protestants can make no counter-moves because the Catholics have closed off all doors by moving the argument totally off any common scheme to which both sides can make reference. I see absolutely no compelling reason why I would accept this understanding of the Eucharist; only if I first accepted the authority claims of the RCC would I be pressed into making such a quasi-intelligible presentation of the RC claims to a real, literal presence of the body and blood.

 

Blogger Fr. Jeffrey Steel said ... (17 March 2008 20:43) : 

Kevin

Thanks for your interaction in this discussion. Can you tell us what scheme of reference both "sides" can begin the discussion so that references can be made? Why does "intelligibility" define what is real to you? Who decides what is and is not intelligible? I am not trying to be difficult here, simply trying to find the common ground where the discussion can take place.

Blessings!

 

Blogger Matthew N. Petersen said ... (17 March 2008 21:00) : 

When we say that Christ's body is ubiquitous, it sounds like we are saying that Christ's body is really big, and every place has Christ's body in it.

But I think this is a misunderstanding of Omnipresence. (And in the Book of Concord, the Lutherans strongly object to taking ubiquity in that manner.)

In the start of Confessions Augustine explores how it is possible for God to be everywhere.

"And How shall I pray to my God, my God and my Lord? When I pray to Him, I call Him into myself. And im me what place or room is there into which my God should come? How should God come into me, God who made heaven and earth? Can it really be so, my Lord God? Can there be in me anything capable so, my Lord God? Can there be in me anything capable of containing you? Can heaven and earth contain you, heaven and earth which you made and in which you made me? Or since nothing in existence could exist without you, does it therefore follow that everything that exists must contain you? I too exist. Why then do I ask you to enter into me? For unless you were in me, I could not exist. For after all I am not in Hell--and yet you are there too. For if I go down into Hell, Thou art there. I could not exist therefore, my God, were it not for your existence in me. Or would it be truer to say that I could not exist unless I existed in you, of whom are all things, by whom are all things, in whom are all things? So it is Lord, so it is. How can I call you when I am already in you? Or where can you come from to enter into me? Can I find a place outside heaven and earth so that there my God may come to me? My God who has said: I fill the heaven and I fill the earth.

You fill the heaven and the earth. Do they therefore contain you? Or after you have filled them, is there still something of you left over, since they are unable to contain you? If so, when heaven and earth are filled with you, into what do you pour that surplus of yourself which remains over? Or is it not rather the case that you have no need to be contained by anything? You yourself contain all things and it is by containing things that you fill them. For those vessels which are full of you do not, as it were, keep you in a fixed condition; since, if they were broken, you would not be dispersed. And when you are poured out over us, it is not you who are brought low but us who are raised up, not you who are scattered but us who are brought together. You who fill everything are wholly present in everything which you fill. Or can we say that, because all things together are unable to contain you wholly, therefore each thing contains only a part of you? Does every thing contain the same part? Or are there different parts for different things in accordance with the varying sizes of the things? That would mean that some parts of you could be greater and some smaller than others. Shall we not rather say this: everywhere you are present in your entirety, and no single thing can contain you in your entirety?"


(Book 1 Chapters 1 and 2, Rex Warner Trans.)

When we ask where most things are, we give their location based on this universe (or even this world). New York is west of Boston. The fish are inside the tank. Hawaii is in the Pacific. Dinner is in the oven.

But God isn't relative to the universe, the universe is relative to God. God isn't in the oven, the oven is in God. God is the firmer and more sure, the oven--and our whole world--needs related and position inside God.

But out position is not in the divine substance, but in each divine Person. The Holy Spirit "filleth all things." Jesus Christ "is all and is in all." In Jesus Christ "all things consist." Everything finds its place in the Persons, in the Father, in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, as Persons. But the Son of the Father is the Son of Mary. In Mary's human Son "all the fullness of Godhead dwells bodily." That is to say, our position is in Mary's human Son. But Mary's Human Son is a man, and thus exists in and as His Body. That is to say, everything's position is in the Body of Christ, or the Body of Christ is omnipresent.

To go back to the quote of Augustine, "no single thing can contain Christ in His entirety," save of course, His body, for He is His Body, and the Bread and Wine, for the Bread and Wine are Christ.

 

Anonymous Phil Cary said ... (17 March 2008 21:23) : 

Luther's concept of omnipresence is, I think, demonstrably indebted to Augustine's. What's unusual about it, of course, is that he applies this concept of divine omnipresence to Christ's BODY.

This has an important consequence for his doctrine of eucharistic presence, in that unlike Calvin and Aquinas (interesting pairing!) he doest not think of Christ as locally (or "circumscriptively") present in heaven. Christ is present at God's right hand, which does not mean at some locality up in the sky, but everywhere in the universe.

By the same token, then, Christ's presence in the eucharist is not local and circumscriptive. It is the very same mode of presence as his presence at God's right hand.

The upshot is that Luther says two things at the same time. On the one hand, he robustly affirms the formula the medieval church imposed on Berengar: we chew Christ's body with our teeth. That's how real and objective the presence of his body is. But on the other hand, we do not chew it up or crush it, or do any other kind of harm to Christ's body, which is incorruptible.

So the same man who insists that we have Christ literally in our mouths in the eucharist also complains that the Zwinglians misunderstand what this means, because "They speak of it [Christ's body] no differently than if it were perishable, digestible, masticable meat, such as one buys in the butcher shop and cooks in the kitchen. Such simpletons are they that they do not see that this flesh is an imperishable, immortal, incorruptible flesh. . . ("That These Words. . ." LW 37:124).

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (17 March 2008 22:35) : 

Fr. Jeffrey,

I suppose I am saying that there are two forms (of "existents") to reality -- the material and spiritual. Included in the material is "non-visible" energies/forces which the physicists are ever-pondering but which are still "material" since they are quantifiable datum of physical reality (at least, in theoretical form they are quantifiable). A materialist is, thus, not someone who believes all the immanent processes of reality are quantified or even will be quantified, but they are quantifiable, i.e., reducible to immanent processes -- a spiritual "other" is de facto ruled out. However, Christians, of course, accept the necessity (at least, necessary by faith, if not reason) of the spiritual, namely our own souls (the root of free will and consciousness of self qua self), the angels, and God.

So, with that in mind, I see Catholic construals of the Eucharist to result in a spiritualizing move, i.e., there is nothing going on in the conversion of the bread/wine that involves any alteration of the material field of reality; or Catholics are saying that the "real," "true" body/blood of Christ is present but it is a "spiritual body" which is not pure spirit but is also "body" -- this is what I call a "third" form of reality. If Catholics are saying the former, then they are saying the "body" of Christ is present, but this means nothing to Protestants who could not care less what you choose to call this presence that is completely spiritual -- i.e., it is not a bodily presence in any material sense and thus not body ("body" is to be material). The alternative "third" form is trying to make some sense of the fact that to be carnate (bodily) is to have a material manifestation, locally circumscribed. So, the "bodily presence" of Christ is his "glorified body." The problem with this is simply that there is nothing we can say about the glorified body of Christ except that we can say everything about it in either a spiritual or material register. So, it seems Catholics want to attribute to it, at turns, everything spirit can do (e.g., omnipresence) and everything the material can do (e.g., locally circumscribed). In other words, all the predicates of both spirit and body are attributed to the glorified body of Christ.

The "third" form seems the most viable, yet the problem is that the spiritual predicates "suck up" all the physical predicates when it is asserted as spiritual, so we are dealing with an existent of reality which can present itself in physical form at times (e.g., Thomas' touching is because of a physical manifesting of the glorified body) while the ascension is a return to spiritual form, as is the presence on altars around the world. In other words, the body of Christ present after the consecration is a spiritual body since all predicates of bodily presence must necessarily be dropped. So, the "third" form is really no different from the "spiritualizing" account in my former alternative. In both instances, the "body" present has no material predicates, no true bodily presence; we do not eat the actual body of Christ which was (by Christ's homoousian with man) a human body just as ours (material and locally circumscribed).

Please note: I am not denying that Christ's glorified body is incapable of "spirit morphing" or some such thing; I am simply saying that the form of this body in Catholic accounts of "sacramental presence" is completely spiritual.

Protestants (at least, Reformed and/or Free Church) can make no real objections to this Catholic account insofar as Catholics are saying that everything is happening at a purely spiritual level. Protestants can have objections, of course; but these will be exegetical objections, namely whether Jesus in John 6 is really saying that some spiritual form of his body and blood is going to feed them. I think not, and, curiously, all Catholic apologists make the point that Jesus does not correct the disciples who leave because Jesus obviously (!) meant that they really would eat his body/blood!! And this sort of confusion (and nonsense) is what was going on at the Reformation, and it continues today.

 

Blogger Matthew N. Petersen said ... (18 March 2008 05:25) : 

Kevin:

I'm a little confused about how you are using "material" and "spiritual." I think we both agree stars are physical things, not spiritual things, but does that mean that in our universe a star is "a huge ball of flaming gas", or can we still say, with Ramandu, that "even in our world that is not what a star is, but only what it is made of"?

On a different note, can we say, with Jacob of Serung that He who contains the universe is contained in a Virgin's Womb?

Phil,

I think (though I'm not sure) that the critical point between Zwingli and Luther is that Zwingli assumed that if the Bread is divided, only part of the original substance would be in both halves--like when we tear an ordinary piece of bread. But since the Bread not only is contained in God, but contains God in his entirety, each part of the bread contains God in his entirety. When we tear the Bread, we have the One Bread in two places. Almost, but not quite, like the Stone of Suleiman from Charles William's Many Dimensions. Though there are now two pieces of Bread, each Bread contains the Fullness of Christ, and thus is the same Bread.

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (18 March 2008 12:15) : 

Matthew,

Yeah, a star is what it is made of, including all necessary immanent processes required thereof. I don't find a mysterious "substance" behind the star helpful, though its very being does come from God and its meaning for us is thanks to our Father's constitution of our own minds to receive such sense impressions as revealing beauty and wonder, provided our hearts are not corrupt and thus open to being qua being. [In other words, as should be clear, I am not an Aristotelian, including all baptized versions.]

On a different note, can we say, with Jacob of Serung that He who contains the universe is contained in a Virgin's Womb?

Well, we can't even really say that the soul of Jesus Christ is contained in the body of Jesus, just as our own souls are not "contained" in our bodies or minds. "Soul" is a spirit principle and thus no predicates of location can be attributed to it, which is also to say that no predicates of non-location can be attributed to it -- in other words, the question of "location" (as a principle of materiality) is not a valid question (much less, any answers!); it can only be used analogously. What spirit is is not to be had by humans who are restricted to conceptual and linguistic schemes given from the material world (and, thus, all of our speech about the non-material is given analogously to the material). We believe in the spiritual because of our faith, and the little we can say about it (in positive, not just apophatic terms) is given from that "end" of the divide (i.e., divine revelation). As for whether God is "contained" in Jesus, we have to say "No" in any strict sense; only "Yes" insofar as the rational processes of the human mind of Jesus are intimately linked with his soul but we really have no idea how soul and body relate because, once again, soul is not subject to our descriptors.

 

Blogger Pontificator said ... (18 March 2008 15:00) : 

Hi, Kevin. Thanks for your comments. You write:

"I see absolutely no compelling reason why I would accept this understanding of the Eucharist; only if I first accepted the authority claims of the RCC would I be pressed into making such a quasi-intelligible presentation of the RC claims to a real, literal presence of the body and blood."

In my recent articles I have not been trying to argue the Catholic case to persuade Protestants who do not already believe a catholic construal of the Eucharist. I put "catholic" in lower-case, because I believe that Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglo-Catholics will find sufficient common ground in eucharistic belief to enter into the discussion, for all parties are agreed that the consecrated elements are indeed the Body and Blood of Christ and thus worthy of our adoration. So for us the challenge is to find the best ways to state and articulate the eucharistic mystery. It is probably the case that all our attempts will fail, but I do think that some ways are better than others.

But matters are different for Protestants who deny what Francis Hall terms the "real identification." These Protestants have their reasons (exegetical, theological, philosophical) for rejecting the catholic dogma, but the simple fact remains that they reject a belief that is shared, and has long been shared, by the large majority of Christians over the past 2,000 years. Does this not give you pause?

I'm afraid I do not understand your arguments on "spirit" and "matter." Does anyone really know what these words mean? Do we know what we mean when we say that God is spirit? Do we have any idea what Jesus' glorified body is really like or what we mean when we speak of resurrection bodies? Do we know what transfigured matter is? One of the things I like about Luther is that he refused to allow philosophical preconceptions to dictate our understanding of eucharistic presence. Hence his constant reiteration of the dominical words.

What we do know is that for 2,000 years most Christians have interpreted the dominical words in a realistic manner, eschewing more reasonable metaphorical interpretations. I realize that interpretation of the Church Fathers on this issue is much debated, particularly Augustine; but I have no doubt whatsoever that the consensual testimony of the Church Fathers by and large support the teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches on the real presence. Augustine may be the exception here; but if Phillip Cary is correct in his reading of Augustine, then we understand why Augustine's views are more "spiritual" than the wider catholic tradition. Cary writes:

"Augustine’s view on the presence of Christ’s literal flesh and blood, on the other hand, is notoriously hard to pin down. Sometimes, e.g. in his Easter sermons addressed to the newly baptized, he says the flesh of Christ is right there on the altar. And other times its presence seems far less objective or literal. I think the reason for this unclarity in Augustine is that he does not really know what to say about Christ's literal flesh, because in his view it has no salvific power. He mainly wants to direct people’s attention away from it (even if it is literally present on the altar) and toward the spiritual Body, which is where we are to find the power of salvation, in our spiritual union with others in Christ."

Needless to say, the western Catholic Church could not follow Augustine on this and proceeded to correct Augustine's eucharistic views along more realistic lines, insisting that we are truly given the Sacred Body and Precious Blood and are thus united to Christ's sanctified human nature, in which salvation is found. As far as I can tell, the Eastern Church was never seriously tempted by the spiritualizing of Augustine.

So if I were going to attempt to persuade a Protestant to convert to a catholic understanding of the Eucharist (and I think "conversion" is probably the right word here), how would I do so? Well, I would probably direct the individual to various books, because the task is beyond me.

I would first encourage them to read Martin Luther's two great works on the Eucharist (helpfully collected together in vol 37 of Luther's Works). I would point them to Luther's driving concern to establish the externality of the gospel, which I suspect is behind, at least partly, his refusal to entertain all metaphorical readings of the dominical words. Non-Lutheran Protestants simply do not understand that Luther's views on justification are intertwined with his more catholic views on the sacraments. Deny the latter and the former fails.

I would then encourage them to read Alexander Schmemann's books on sacraments: *For the Life of the World* and *The Eucharist*. Schmemann presents an understanding of the sacramentality of creation, an understanding that profoundly challenges typical Protestant (and Catholic) understandings of God and his relationship to the world.

I would then encourage them to read Abbot Vonier's *A Key to the Doctrine of the Eucharist*. Schmemann in fact strongly criticizes Vonier, but I do not think the two are quite as far apart as Schmemann thinks. And for an Anglo-Catholic presentation, I would commend Robert Wilberforce's *The Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist*.

And if after all of this the individual is still not persuaded, well, at least he will have given the catholic tradition a good hearing; and that is all that anyone can ask. At some point an individual either sees the profound unity of the Church's belief in the Incarnation and the Church's belief in and practice of the Eucharist, or he does not. I do not think this unity can be demonstrated by syllogistic reasoning; it must be intuited, seen and experienced, if you will. Here theory and practice go hand in hand. Only catholic construals of the Eucharist make sense of the Church's eucharistic life.

 

Anonymous Anonymous said ... (18 March 2008 15:01) : 

To anyone and all,

I am ignorant about much of this, however, what is the connection between Body and Flesh. "This is My Body" and " My Flesh is true food etc..."? Much of this discussion is about the Body. What about the word Flesh. Christ seemed to almost go out of his way to stress the reality of eating His Flesh.

Pat

 

Blogger William Tighe said ... (18 March 2008 17:37) : 

As I recall, while in Greek "sarx" means "flesh" and "soma" means "body," in Hebrew (and Aramaic) the one word "basar" (or "bisir") means both. Thus "den bisri" could mean in Aramaic what we might translate as "This is my body" or "This is my flesh." (Another possibility, although very remote, in Aramaic would be "den guphi" which would be "This is my corpse/decayed body.")

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (18 March 2008 18:03) : 

Fr. Al,

Thanks for your response. I need to emphatically note that in my discussion of matter and spirit (including my most recent response to Matthew), I note both that the material order is still not fully comprehended/quantified (likely not ever) and that spirit is completely outside any predictates of materiality, namely location, such that a person's soul is not "located" in the mind of the person. I am fully aware of what we do not know -- and this is my point. Catholics have (and continue) to anathematize Protestants for not accepting their account of the "real," "bodily" presence of Christ, when if we actually analyze what this means, Catholics deny any true bodily presence and opt for a spiritual presence, since absolutely no predicates of materiality can be made of the "sacramental presence" of Christ. What the hell were we debating at the Reformation anyway -- if it were not Rome's insistence that Christ's body is really there, in the elements, under the species (appearances) of bread and wine? I don't think Rome knows what they were saying then, nor now -- and they had absolutely no grounds to condemn the Protestants who were simply arguing for a spiritual presence of Christ since his body is no longer present on earth (i.e., the doctrine of the Ascension). I think the fact that we have to resort to such philosophizing is a problem that is the fault of the Catholic Church for wanting to insist on things like this:

"Here the pastor should explain that in this Sacrament are contained not only the true body of Christ and all the constituents of a true body, such as bones and sinews, but also Christ whole and entire." (Catechism of the Council of Trent)

What the hell! And if you go on to explain, with the aid of Thomistic philosophy, how this is not saying what it is saying, you are proving my point. I'll take the Heidelberg Catechism any day.

As well, I have read Abbot Vonier's A Key to the Doctrine of the Eucharist in conjuction with the pertinent sections from Thomas' Summa Theologiae, The Council of Trent, the Roman Catechism, and the contemporary accounts of Rahner and Schillebeeckx (who try to save the doctrine but, of course, end-up in linguistics and sophisticated accounts of signification -- in other words, the debate was moved from ontology to epistemology, a reasonable move but not very Catholic, as Paul VI noted in his encyclical, Mysterium Fidei). So, I have given this issue a fair amount of consideration, as should be obvious from my comments on this thread and previous posts. Of course, I think Augustine had a strictly spiritual understanding of the Eucharist, as do many other early fathers, whose fervent language can easily be read anachronistically; however, some fathers do seem to have a view of real, physical (material) presence to which we simply cannot see (physically) because it is "hidden" from our sight by the continuing appearance (species) of bread and wine. I would simply say that these fathers are wrong, as would virtually all Catholic theologians today, whether they are more Thomistic, like McCabe, or more Kantian, like Rahner.

 

Blogger Pontificator said ... (18 March 2008 19:04) : 

Since Luther has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, I'd like to bring to everyone's attention the discussion on sacraments by Robert Jenson in his book Lutheranism. Click on the link and then go to page 80.

 

Blogger Matthew N. Petersen said ... (18 March 2008 20:02) : 

Kevin,

If you aren't Arisotelean, that seems fine with me, but it is wrong to say Aquinas says that something spiritual not material happens. He is Aristotelean.

Consider an water molecule that is split apart, and becomes part of a tree. It seems accurate to say something material has happened, but that this material action can't be reduced to chemical reactions. The oxygen was part of a water molecule, now its part of a cellulose molecule. But on a different level, it was water, now it's part of a tree. That it is now part of a tree seems to be a statement about a material event, not a spiritual one. But you won't ever find a material change that corresponds to the becomming a tree. Maybe you have a way of characterizing this that keeps your distinction of matter and spirit. But Aquinas characterizes it as a substantial change. When I pointed at the oxygen before and asked "what is this" it was water. Now it's a tree. When I pointed at the host before and asked "what is this" it was bread. Now it's Christ. Maybe his explination of how the Host comes to be Christ is too philosophical, but it isn't saying something merely spiritual happens.

What the hell were we debating at the Reformation anyway -- if it were not Rome's insistence that Christ's body is really there, in the elements, under the species (appearances) of bread and wine?

Yes, we were debating at the Reformation if Christ is present in with and under the bread and wine. But the debate wasn't between Protestants and Rome, but among Protestants. If Trent and philosophizing are wrong, you agree with the Formula of Concord and the Orthodox. But that Trent obscures doesn't reflect poorly on the doctrine Trent is trying to explain, and which is shared by the Formula of Concord and the Orthodox. Heidelburg doesn't obscure. But neither is "we hold that bread and wine in the Supper are the true body and blood of Christ, and are given and received not only by the godly, but also by wicked Christians." from the (Lutheran) Smalcald Articles.

 

Blogger Fr. Jeffrey Steel said ... (18 March 2008 20:46) : 

I am really wanting to get into this discussion but my plate is so full due to Holy Week that it will have to wait until Monday next week at the earliest. But, please do keep it going and I will report in shortly. Thanks for some good talking material gentlemen!

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (18 March 2008 22:34) : 

Matthew,

A drop of water that is assimilated into the organism of a tree is not undergoing a "substantial" change which cannot be reduced to whatever the scientist tells me happens to the chemicals of the water drop and the chemicals of the tree. A merging of chemicals occurs (and, likely, an alteration of chemical makeup, since this is what chemicals do when they touch certain other chemicals). I don't consider anything else going on, nor do I see any reason why I should.

As for St. Thomas, my argument is that "substance" cannot rightly be considered a physical, material phenomenon -- it is a bare particular to which no predicates can be ascribed. So, for example, what is the loaf of bread before us? If we start to describe it materially (and not just linguistically, i.e., it means food-for-me) then everything we say about it or could say about its makeup is then categorized as not substance. So what is substance? Nothing -- at least, there is nothing we can say about it? Just as spirit is unable to be ascribed material properties, so is substance; therefore, substance is a spiritual phenomenon. The Thomist will insist that the substance is nonetheless necessary for each material phenomenon, but this is absolutely all they can say about it. And it is this "bare predicate" of substance which Thomists claim to be removed from the bread and replaced with Jesus' substance. Protestants then, rightly, complain that you are not talking about the physical anymore, so why on earth are you insisting that the real, literal, actual, true, physical, etc. body and blood of Christ is present? (Once again, the quote I gave from the Roman Catechism is quite typical.) You guys have no idea what is present except, what, the "deeper meaning" or "deeper existence" of the body of Christ? I don't care -- the only body of Christ which I care about is the one that hung on the Cross and rose from the grave to be touched by his disciples.

As for the Lutherans, does anyone know what Lutherans believe? Why should I deal with people who simply assert,

"The bread is the body of Christ."

I then say, "So you believe there's a physical, albeit unobservable, change?"

"Oh, well, no...um, it just is the body."

"So, it is just a spiritual presence of Christ?"

"No, no, that would be Reformed, and we're Lutherans...we believe Christ's body is really there."

"But not his real body that he took in Mary's womb, right?"

"Well...."

You get my point. At least the Catholics have seen that it is inescapable to make some account, that is, if your church is unwilling to just say that Jesus' body is not actually here. My criticisms for the Lutherans perhaps apply to the Eastern Orthodox as well, but it just depends who you talk to.

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (19 March 2008 00:09) : 

After some thinking, I want to qualify my criticisms of the Lutheran position. The Lutheran position is actually more commendable than my mocking allowed, insofar as you must always assert what you believe to be given on the authority of God and if you can say nothing more, then say nothing more -- and this is what (most) confessional Lutheran eucharistic theology has done. For any Christian who affirms a Three-in-One/One-in-Three God, this is a good lesson to learn. However, while Lutherans seem to leave open what exactly the "is" means in "This is my body," they do close off certain doors, including the Reformed interpretation, on the one hand, and Transubstantiation, on the other hand. If they are going to deny these interpretations (especially the Reformed) as valid, then they must give account to why, and this will inevitably require them to make the sort of distinctions which they do not want to do and believe they cannot do. So, to this extent, there is an inconsistency on the Lutheran side. Note: I am thinking of confessional Lutheran theology; if you are looking at modern Lutherans (from Tillich and Bultmann to Pannenberg and Jenson) then you've got a wide variety of approaches.

 

Blogger Matt said ... (19 March 2008 00:12) : 

In light of your qualification of your ridicule of the Lutheran position:

Why did you mock the Lutheran position in the first place? I don't see how that tone advances the argument. I, for one, would be much more receptive to your very interesting points about the rather tenuous distinction between the Reformed and Thomistic views of the Eucharist if the tendency to mockery were not present...

I know this doesn't advance this conversation substantively, but I thought it couldn't hurt to mention...

 

Blogger Matthew N. Petersen said ... (19 March 2008 07:06) : 

Kevin,

Thanks for the qualification.

I don't know much about historic Lutheranism, but I think I would turn to Bonhoeffer--who didn't make your list, so I think he must be ok--and say that the problem with the Calvinist position is that instead of standing in the light of the fact that the Bread is the Body of Christ--is Christ for us--it attempts to answer how the bread makes Christ for us. But "how?" is impossible for us to answer because it implies knowledge of the hidden God, but we are only given the revealed God, the that. And it is problematic because it makes it so I can't look to anything, but I must look through something.

I'm not sure that I agree with Bonhoeffer's rejection of transubstantiation--we can in the light of the "that" move into greater understanding of "what" and "how", but only if we begin with the "that." But Bonhoeffer would criticize transubstantiation of attempting to answer "how", and thus in a way analogous to the fact that both Nestorianism and Monophysitism result in the same thing--an absent God--both transubstantiation and Heidelburg result in the same thing, an absent God.

I'm sympathetic to that criticism of transubstantiation, especially after seeing some of Fr. Kimel's stuff from MacCabe, but I'll try to get some more on it up presently.

Matt

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (19 March 2008 11:38) : 

Matthew,

Your brief description of Bonhoeffer's position is a good, succinct way to put it, and one well worth considering. I do still question if we can really just say that the "body" (no material predicates allowed) is "there" (itself a material predicate) and nothing more.

The point of Heidelberg, and Reformed confessional theology in general, is that we must say that the body of Christ is not here (the whole point of the Ascension and Christ's sending of the Spirit) but, rather, that the Holy Spirit is present and, in his perichoretic relation with Christ, uniting us to Christ. Q&A #76 from Heidelberg puts it well:

Q. What does it mean to eat the crucified body of Christ and to drink his shed blood?

A. It is not only to embrace with a trusting heart the whole passion and death of Christ, and by it to receive the forgiveness of sin and eternal life. In addition, it is to be so united more and more to his blessed body by the Holy Spirit dwelling both in Christ and in us that, although he is in heaven and we are on earth, we are nevertheless flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, always living and being governed by one Spirit, as the members of our bodies are governed by one soul.

 

Blogger Pontificator said ... (19 March 2008 14:28) : 

Kevin, I'm not sure why, in your responses to me, you moved into a mocking tone. I have not intentionally insulted your convictions, and if I have said anything to insult you, I apologize. But I do believe that the Reformed have departed from the catholic understanding in their construals of the eucharistic presence, and I believe that this departure rises to the level of heresy, i.e., a church-dividing issue.

I do not have a sufficient enough grasp of St Thomas to either explicate or defend his formulation of transubstantiation. I do not know if you have correctly stated his understanding of substance. I wish a sophisticated Thomist was available who could enter the discussion and engage you at the philosophical level needed. Alas, I am not competent to do so.

But I do not believe you have done justice to the intent of St Thomas's reflections. Though I personally believe that he goes too far in seeking to "explain" the eucharistic mystery, he well understands that mystery is involved here. And the mystery is posited by the words of Jesus: "this is my body," "this is my blood." With the Church he knows that metaphorical and symbolic interpretations of these words (as, e.g., we find in Berengar) mis-represent the eucharistic promises and thus distort our understanding and experience of the eucharistic gift.

Whatever the deficiencies of St Thomas's formulation of transubstantiation may be, one thing is clear: after the consecration the eucharistic elements ARE the body and blood of Christ and therefore ARE Christ himself. And they ARE Christ in such a way that we may now locate him where the species are and may direct our worship and prayers to him. And they ARE Christ in such a way that when the faithful eat and drink the holy gifts they are truly united to the whole Christ in his divinity and humanity. And they ARE Christ in such a way that even the impious eat Christ when they take take the holy gifts into their mouths. The Reformed deny that the bread and wine ARE Christ in all these ways. It is precisely this denial that is the Reformed Protestant error, and it is precisely this denial that separates the Reformed and other evangelical Protestants from the communions of catholic Christendom.

It is quite one thing to criticize the Thomistic formulation of transubstantiation as an inadequate statement of the eucharistic mystery. Many Catholic theologians, as you have noted, in fact do so. I for one much prefer the Eastern Orthodox restraint on this matter. The Catholic Church does not demand that all Christians must subscribe to the formulation of St Thomas. Theological formulations are always inadequate in one way or another and are thus open to revision, correction, and re-statement. But it is quite a different matter to dogmatically deny the dogmatic identification of the eucharistic elements with the Body and Blood. This denial effectively denies the eucharistic mystery and sets the Reformed against catholic Christianity; for it forces the Reformed to anathematize Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglo-Catholics and to regard them as idolaters.

This is not therfore just a Protestant-Catholic conflict. It is a conflict between Reformed and Catholics, between Reformed and Lutherans, between Reformed and Eastern Orthodox. Again I ask you, does not this Reformed contra mundum stance give you pause?

You cite the following from the Roman Catechism: "Here the pastor should explain that in this Sacrament are contained not only the true body of Christ and all the constituents of a true body, such as bones and sinews, but also Christ whole and entire." You then state, "What the hell! And if you go on to explain, with the aid of Thomistic philosophy, how this is not saying what it is saying, you are proving my point. I'll take the Heidelberg Catechism any day." But what precisely do you object to in this statement? Do you object to it because its understanding of glorified body is too unglorified, that a glorified body does not have bones and sinews? Well, I might agree with you; but I imagine that most Reformed of the day also held a similar position. Do you object to it because it requires theological explanation, lest it be misunderstood? But that is a silly objection, because all theological assertions require interpretation. Given that the folks who drew up the catechism were deeply influenced by Aquinas, it is not unreasonable to explain this statement along the lines of Aquinas. Thus when we turn to the Summa we find Aquinas insisting that the whole Christ is substantially present in the Eucharist: "not only the flesh, but the whole body of Christ, that is, the bones and nerves and all the rest" (3a.76.1), but he is present in the mode of substance and not in a natural mode. Now you may find the Tridentine claim preposterous, but at least acknowledge the critical theological point that is being made: the whole Christ in his sacred humanity is present under the species, not just his divinity. And why is this important? Because our salvation is to be found in his sanctified human nature! As one who has read a great deal of Thomas Torrance, you should appreciate the salvific intention of the Tridentine claim.

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (19 March 2008 20:26) : 

Fr. Al,

I truly was not intending to mock you in any way. My mocking was directed at the Catholic Church's specific act of anathematizing Protestant eucharistic theologies, and instead offering the rather dubious account of Thomas. Yes, Trent did not precisely make the Thomistic account de fide, but the presuppositions behind the teaching was Thomist, as demonstrated in the Catechism of the Council of Trent.

We have to remember that the Reformers were concerned not just with what was going on at the universities and monasteries, but, more so, with what was going on at the ground level. The proper catechizing of the people was the major drive that pushed the bulk of work the Reformers engaged in. The people were being told that the material body of Christ, bones etc., is where the elements of bread and wine are -- and that bread and wine now only "appear" to be such but are "really" the body of Christ. That's what the people were taught, and that's what the Catechism of Trent instructed to be taught. Surely you can see why the Reformers (at least, the Reformed wing) found this appalling, as do virtually all Catholic theologians today.

You say that the Reformed have broken from the Catholic tradition, but there is hardly a unanimous metaphysics of the "change" at consecration in the rest of the tradition -- even in a minimalist sense. In the early church, we have clear spiritualizing accounts along with seemingly cannibalistic accounts (certainly not qualified by substance/accidents distinctions, but only qualified by the "appearance" of bread/wine remaining, hence some material-chemical change seems to be in view). Confessional Lutherans effectively have no eucharistic theology, and the Eastern Orthodox refuse to make any sort of material predicates, thus moving everything to the decidedly non-material world of spiritual essences (the same thing McCabe et al. are doing, along with the existential-semantic accounts of Rahner et al.). Yet, in the end, we are just to say the bread/wine is Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul, and divinity, and, thus, to treat such bread/wine as God. The Reformed instead say that the body of Christ is present but only insofar as the Holy Spirit is uniting our body with his body. Thus, the communal meal is sacred, but the bread/wine are not in-themselves because they are not God -- and the Catholics say just as much when they deny a physico-chemical change. As for idolatry accusations, these, of course, are not accurate insofar as Catholics believe Jesus to be wholly "there" and not "bread" (even though bread qua bread remains). Of course, you will likely rebuke my account of the Catholic teaching (especially since I do not see "substantial" change to be anything more than a matter of re-signification and nothing else), but surely you can see why Reformed and Free Church Christians (including many a Lutheran) would be less-than-impressed by both the Catholic account and various other accounts in the broader "catholic" tradition.

 

Blogger Matthew N. Petersen said ... (19 March 2008 22:07) : 

Kevin,

I don't mean to put down the Reformed understanding of the Eucharist, but here's my attempt to get at what I believe and why. Sometimes I may lapse into philosophical discussion--that's my training--but I'm trying to say something not philosophical. The confusion is from my increasing unfamiliarity with philosophical terms, and an only gradually increasing familiarity with other ways of talking.

Augustine says "everywhere you are present in your entirety, and no single thing can contain you in your entirety." I think this is a very fundamental Christian statement. Christ is present everywhere, but nothing can contain him. Wherever I look, I see Christ. "THE WORLD is charged with the grandeur of God." Each thing flings out wide its name, that being indors each one dwells--but that being that inscape (if you are familiar with Hopkins)--is Christ. All the world is a dance, and a dance with our husband.

As Hopkins says (In "The Wreck of the Deutschland") (the "he" is Christ):

"I kiss my hand
To the stars, lovely-asunder
Starlight, wafting him out of it; and Glow, glory in thunder;
Kiss my hand to the dappled-with-damson west:
Since, tho’ he is under the world’s splendour and wonder,
His mystery must be instressed, stressed;
For I greet him the days I meet him, and bless when I understand."

Hopkins worships the host of heaven, because the ground of the world's splendour and wonder is Christ. So his worship of the host of heaven is (since the passion, and for one who worships Christ through these things), a worship of Christ.

Or as Schmemann said, everything is given us as a symbol of Christ. It is through this world received from God that we are to experience--not necessarialy to think, but to feel, to enjoy--God.

But it is of course possible to sin. To look to the world illuminated by Christ, but not to Christ. "I had my back to the light, and my face to the things enlightened; whence my face, with which I discerned the things enlightened, itself was not enlightened." Confessions Book IV)

We marvel at stained glass windows, but at the wrong side. We stand outside the church, and though the window is brilliant, we are not illuminated. We must look at the pictures from inside the church, that we may be illuminated by the light shining through the window.

But to command "look at the window from inside the Church, not outside" replaces the old law with a new law. I am still saved by myself. I am saved by where I stand. If I am saved by Christ, there must be something I can look to that not only is illuminated, but is light.

Or to say that another way, whatever we worship, we are conformed to its image. I can and should receive the Uncreated light in and through created things, but if I look to the created thing, I will miss part of God, become an image of the created thing--a chess player, not a saint who loves chess; a sports geek, not a saint who loves sports; a wino, not a saint who loves wine; dissolute, not a saint who loves Beatrice--and thus will not become what God intends me to be, a mirror image of Christ.

But again, if we say, "look through everything, not to anything" we are preaching a new law. Our salvation depends in this situation on our ability to look through and not to. But our salvation does not depend on our ability. So there must be something that we can and should look to, something that contains Christ in His entirety. Something that we want to be conformed into the image of. But there can be no greater aspiration than to be the Bread of Life for Christ (or for his Church, see Colossians 1).

And in answer to both metphors, the Bread is the light, and the Bread contains Christ in His fullness. As we can never find something in Christ which exceeds or comes short of the Father, so we cannot find anything in the Bread which exceeds Christ or comes short of Him. Just as it is not and cannot be looking from the Father to idolatrize Christ, so it is not and cannot be looking from Christ to idolatrize the Bread.

The Reformed answer comes up a little short of this because at every instant, I am left with nothing. At every moment in the ceremony, I must say "not here, somewhere else." Perhaps I receive Christ at this instant, but I cannot say here is Christ. Neither can I say Christ is in this action. Christ is not present in the participles "eating and drinking" for the participles have objects. Christ is not in the "eating bread and drinking wine", because only physical nourishment is present in the eating bread and drinking wine. Christ is present through the eating and drinking, I can call to mind Christ through the eating and drinking (I can believe that as surely as I eat the bread and drink the wine...) but I cannot look to anything and say "here is Christ."

Can I explain exactly what this means? No. I can believe that the Bread is Christ, but I can't understand arguments based on our modern physics--all I know is that the material think present before my eyes, the physical thing I see is Christ. No, nothing physical has changed. But the Bread now contains Christ in His entirety. It is impossible to idolatrize the Bread for the Bread is Christ. The Bread is my light. The Bread contains all good.

 

Blogger Matthew N. Petersen said ... (19 March 2008 22:14) : 

That statement would be stronger if I replaced "look to" (and its synonyms) with worship. Thus, for instance, "I can and should worship the Uncreated light in and through created things, but if I worship the created thing, I will miss part of God, become an image of the created thing--a chess player, not a saint who loves chess; a sports geek, not a saint who loves sports; a wino, not a saint who loves wine; dissolute, not a saint who loves Beatrice--and thus will not become what God intends me to be, a mirror image of Christ."

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (20 March 2008 05:47) : 

Matthew,

I really enjoyed your presentation here. And I love Hopkins! -- and your use of him here was great. I wish I could go into your account in more detail, but I have to read some Flannery O'Connor for a class in a few hours. I will say that your account is quite similar to what I've seen in Eastern Orthodox accounts, to which I have been the least critical (even non-critical) in this thread. Instead, my criticisms have much to do with the (seemingly) Catholic inability to recognize their own obfuscations as decisive for the Reformation protests and general confusion.

 

Anonymous Anonymous said ... (20 March 2008 13:13) : 

Kevin,
Thanks for your responses here. There is, as I'm sure everyone here knows, a great deal to be said on this particular doctrine, ie, The Eucharist. Not to mention how this "one" doctrine touches on all other doctrines, ie., Trinity, Incarnation, and our understanding of them. Also, the most important facts of the faith such as the Supernatural, the Mystrious and the Miraculous. To discuss this particular doctrine in "too" abstact a way is to, IMHO, run the risk of 'rationalizing' the faith, thus smothering the faith itself.

The apparent "muddled" treatment that the RCC gives to the doctrine of the Eucharist, ie, transubstansiation, is actually not at all a problem for a practicing Roman Catholic. The RCC is not required to explain this doctrine to the full likeing of all believers including Protestants. In short, any ambiguity or, as you say, obfuscation is perfectly OK. This is true for the simple reason of the Divinely constituted and unified spiritual authority that the RCC possesses. This is always the issue in the background of any discussion with a Protestant.

Now, for the issue itself. As for the Scriptural elements in this discussion. I am struck by the fact that Our Lord corrected the Disciples on a misunderstanding over a literal v. figurative/symbolic interpretaion concerning the leven of the Pharisees. They thought he meant "literal" bread but he corrected them by clarifying that he was speaking figuratively, ie. their teaching. So, the Lord did not allow for a misunderstanding of what he was saying. Now, in John 6 no such correction is made. The Lord knew that all involved understood Him to be speaking of His "literal" Flesh and Blood. He made no such correction indicating that He was speaking "only" figuratively or even spiritually. In fact, he states the claim in even stronger terms, "Unless you eat the flesh..." This is telling to me. I do not believe our Lord would allow for so much to turn on a misunderstanding, ie, literally eat His flesh understanding, by His diciples who, 'no longer went about with him.'

In short, regarding this doctrine, as with many others, if one is only left with the question of, "Well, who's to say what this really means and/or doesn't mean?, then this is unacceptable to me as a Christian. That probably explains why I remain a Roman Catholic and feel blessed to be one.

Pat

 

Blogger Matthew N. Petersen said ... (20 March 2008 18:18) : 

Kevin,

Yeah, I understand the problem with Catholic obfuscating. The other day I was looking through a traditionalist book on confession that was absolutely horrible. It made it sound like God doesn't love us unless we go to confession.

I think it in part comes from a wrong approach to St. Thomas. We tent to think of St. Thomas as the theologian par excellence. But I don't think that is accurate. St. Francis of Assisi, or St. Therese of Lisieux, or St. Bernard of Clairveaux as theologians par excellence. The contemplatives--Mary listening to Christ, not Martha working--are the best theologians. Dante puts St. Thomas at the sphere of the sun, below even the sphere of Jupiter and the kings, and clearly below Saturn and the contemplatives.

But St. Thomas was not a contemplative, he was an acedemic. Now there is nothing wrong with being an acedemic--every profession is illuminated, every profession Christian, the acedemic one is. St. Thomas should be thought of as a crusader who took up the cross and defended Europe from a false intellectualism, and a heretical Aristoteleanism sweeping across Europe. Yes, he practiced contemplation, so yes, he has many brilliant theological insights. And yes, his synthesis is truly remarkable. And yes, when engaging philosophers he says many very good philosophical things. The fathers would have been inaccessible for me had not St. Thomas put their insights into philosophy. St. Thomas is an acedemic--an acedemic par excellence, an acedemic who puts contemplative thoughts into acedemic speech--but an acedemic. We must, contrary to what many Catholics have done, treat his writings as philosophical explinations as dogma, and not dogma itself. When we make his philosophy dogma, we make this world's thought the thought of Christ, and thus obscure Christ.

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (20 March 2008 21:48) : 

Pat,

Welcome to the discussion. I agree that a Roman Catholic would come at it differently, as I noted in my first comment, but there are still intellectual difficulties here that can negatively affect the, shall we say, "solidity," of one's faith. Of course, we're all Christians, and there will always be difficulties ("that do not make a doubt" - J.H. Newman). As for John 6, there's two problems with this common Catholic reading. First is that Catholics deny any "literal" eating of Christ's flesh, while the disciples who left believed that the scandal lay (in part, at least) in his cannibalistic statements. So, Catholics are saying, "Look, they believe Jesus is telling them that they will literally eat his flesh, and Jesus doesn't correct them; therefore, Jesus did mean that they will literally eat his flesh." So, my first objection is that what the disciples who left thought (cannibalism) and what Jesus teaches (according to Catholic teaching) is not the same thing since Christ does not give his material flesh, as this would be cannibalism. Second, and more importantly, Jesus does not correct them, why? -- simply because they do not trust Jesus -- they are without faith; thus, they do not see that Jesus is telling of his coming sacrifice that will bring life (a new creation, and new body, indeed) to those who believe. Here is the opening of the discourse and the context in which it is to be read:

Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." So they said to him, "Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
(John 6:27-36)

It is the act of "coming" to Jesus and "believing" in him that constitutes the eating and drinking of his life-giving flesh and blood -- which is following upon the previous point that the food "that endures to eternal life" is given by the Son in the "work of God," which is, for men, "to believe in him whom he has sent." By their fleshly-mindedness, in even supposing that Jesus meant eating his literal flesh, they were unable to see this, so Jesus let them go. The true disciples trusted and, even though not fully understanding the salvific promise involved, kept to Jesus.

 

Anonymous Kevin Davis said ... (20 March 2008 22:06) : 

Matthew,

You may be interested in an essay by Hans Urs von Balthasar entitled, "Theology and Sancity" (found in The Word Made Flesh, Ignatius Press). I dealt with it a little in this blog post of mine. Von B.'s essay is arguing that there has been a split in Catholic thought between theologians and contemplatives/mystics after the medieval scholastic period, so from St. Paul to St. Thomas, theology was intimately informed by an incarnating of the truth at a fundamental level in the theologians of the church. However, it was the work of the scholastics, St. Thomas especially, that propelled theology into a specialized "science" in which the clarification of conceptual categories according to standards of rationality is primary -- all of which led ultimately to the Enlightenment "crisis" which largely continues today. So, if von B. is correct, St. Thomas in himself is not demonstrative of the problem, but, as you say, the use of Thomas has been the problem -- namely, not seeing that he was fundamentally informed by his own mysticism and that he himself recognized, vis-a-vis a mystical encounter, that his work was straw.

 

Blogger Matthew N. Petersen said ... (21 March 2008 06:39) : 

Thanks for the link. I enjoyed it.

 

Blogger Anselm Lewis said ... (14 April 2008 19:28) : 

It is beyond us to say that Transubstantiation does not occur. It is in error to assume that Transubstantiation is a Latin Doctrine

ST. CLEMENT OF ROME (c. 80 A.D.[the same year John died])

Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have OFFERED ITS SACRIFICES [or offered the gifts, referring to the Eucharist]. (Letter to Corinthians 44:4)

ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (c. 110 A.D.)

I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD, which is love incorruptible. (Letter to Romans 7:3)

Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: FOR THERE IS ONE FLESH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and one cup IN THE UNION OF HIS BLOOD; one ALTAR, as there is one bishop with the presbytery... (Letter to Philadelphians 4:1)

They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrn 7:1)

ST. IRENAEUS (c. 140 - 202 A.D.)

...He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, "THIS IS MY BODY." The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, HE CONFESSED TO BE HIS BLOOD.

He taught THE NEW SACRIFICE OF THE NEW COVENANT, of which Malachi, one of the twelve prophets, had signified beforehand: [quotes Mal 1:10-11]. By these words He makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; BUT THAT IN EVERY PLACE SACRIFICE WILL BE OFFERED TO HIM, and indeed, a pure one; for His name is glorified among the Gentiles. (Against Heresies 4:17:5)

But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given IS THE BODY OF THEIR LORD, and the cup HIS BLOOD, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator... How can they say that the flesh which has been nourished BY THE BODY OF THE LORD AND BY HIS BLOOD gives way to corruption and does not partake of life? ...For as the bread from the earth, receiving the invocation of God, IS NO LONGER COMMON BREAD BUT THE EUCHARIST, consisting of two elements, earthly and heavenly... (Against Heresies 4:18:4-5)

If the BODY be not saved, then, in fact, neither did the Lord redeem us with His BLOOD; and neither is the cup of the EUCHARIST THE PARTAKING OF HIS BLOOD nor is the bread which we break THE PARTAKING OF HIS BODY...He has declared the cup, a part of creation, TO BE HIS OWN BLOOD, from which He causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, HE HAS ESTABLISHED AS HIS OWN BODY, from which He gives increase to our bodies.

When, therefore, the mixed cup and the baked bread receives the Word of God and BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, THE BODY OF CHRIST, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, WHICH IS ETERNAL LIFE -- flesh which is nourished BY THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD...receiving the Word of God, BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, WHICH IS THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST... (Against Heresies 5:2:2-3)

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num8.htm
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num31.htm


GENNADIUS (c. 1453 AD)

At the time of the Council of Florence (1439), a layman named George Scholarius (later known as Gennadius and appointed Patriarch of Constantinople in 1453) wrote a treatise "Homily on the Sacramental Body of our Lord Jesus Christ" and introduces language and phraseology that had become current in the West. He is the first individual to use the word "TRANSUBSTANTIATION" (Greek metousiosis) in reference to the Eucharist in the East (see Stone, page 172ff for the original Greek). The term had become standard in the West by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.

Gennadius speaks of the change (Greek metabole) of the SUBTANCE (Greek ousia) of the elements into the SUBSTANCE of the body and blood of Christ; of the "ACCIDENTS" (Greek sumbebekota) of the bread and wine remaining unchanged; of the body of Christ being with its appropriate ACCIDENTS, while the bread retains its ACCIDENTS without its own SUBSTANCE; and of the outward state of the elements being preserved in view of the repugnance which communicants might otherwise feel.

He maintains that the body of Christ is not in the Sacrament naturally but after the manner of a Sacrament, and therefore is not in it as in a place, and is not under the dimensions of a real body but under the dimensions of the bread only. He says that each fragment is the whole body of Christ, and that the body of Christ in heaven and on every altar on earth is one and the same, being that body which was born of the Virgin, was once on the cross, and is now in heaven (the full text of the Sermon of Gennadius is found in Migne PG 160:351-374).

 

post a comment